Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

...Yikes.

Anyway, I think we can find something political about a lot of things. Certainly, if games are to be treated as art, then they ought to be open to this sort of criticism. Mass Effect, being heavily based on story and characterization, even more so.

Well getting back to the original point, I was also annoyed and confused about not being able to Romance Jack with Femshep.

HOWEVER I conceded that Jack is not exactly the most...stable individual. She doesn't really know what she is. Moreover, her accounting of her time with a woman was not exactly flattering. Granted, none of her previous sexual experiences seemed to be healthy but my point is I let it slide.

ME romances just kind of suck in general. It's my only complaint about ME compared to DA. Well that and the lack of party banter.

When it comes to critical analysis, political issues are perfectly valid. Trying to use your interpretation into a condemnation of the artist is a fallacy, though. Just keep that in mind.

I honestly find most attempts at depicting LGBT relationships as problematic. Either you're condemned for depicting it without any problems or you're condemned for depicting it as being too simple.

I dunno, I think bioware handled Traynor and Cortez's homosexuality rather well. Krem-Bruleé was a good trans character, while they don't usually bring too much attention over their characters' bisexuality. They just... are.

edited 26th Sep '15 9:34:16 PM by ITNW1989

Which I think is the best way to be. I've never understand the bitching about how 'it's not really any different for a Male or Female Hawke." I see no reason why any of the 4 DA 2 romances should give a shit about sex.

Although in Origins Zevran is kind enough to make sure you're "into that sort of thing" if you are a Male Warden. Not sure if Leliana asks something similar if you are female. Perhaps not as she's not as flirty as Zevran.

Wait, I just thought of something. Are the asari the only bisexual characters in ME? Kelly is there I guess but she barely qualifies.

edited 26th Sep '15 10:15:40 PM by Nikkolas

There's also Alenko, and possibly any female bonded with an asari; who knows if they're gay or bi.

Asari are technically omni-sexual, their concepts of sexuality go beyond gender, species and even biological... interlocking. We identify living organisms as male and female largely according to who provides the incubating genetic material and who provides the external fertilization, but there are many organisms with relatively close biology who cannot properly simulate sexual experiences together. That's not even accounting for any form of genetic compatibility a la Half-Human Hybrid.

I have to admit, had trouble with the choice of words in that last paragraph.

But anyway, while not really explored it would be more likely that on a physical level Asari sexuality is not quite like traditional human sexuality. The satisfaction of another species entering an Asari relationship lies in the Mind Meld and not strictly Green-Skinned Space Babe kinks.

Traynor as a character is uninteresting. She's a Mary Sue. Seriously. She's artificially flawless - and she's indistinguishable from the ACTUAL Mary Sue except for the fact she's not half-Vulcan and she doesn't have a Heroic Sacrifice. (If you don't count her toothbrush.)

edited 27th Sep '15 8:54:00 AM by AnotherGuy

She is hypocondriac, extremelly socially awkward, and dependant on external feedback to open up as a person (and throughly blunt when open), despite damn fine efficiency from a professional standpoint.

Didn't know lab rats were Mary Sues...

Remember that time Traynor stopped the Reapers by herself with a toothbrush?

"She is hypocondriac, extremelly socially awkward, and dependant on external feedback to open up as a person"

And that's different from the original Mary Sue... how? You do know that there's a trope for that, right? Adorkable.

Those are "cute" flaws, but every single character - EVERY SINGLE ONE - talks about how awesome she is, including EDI, who I guess is the Vulcan for Mary Sue to be attracted to. Admitting she's a Robosexual = "I'm half-Vulcan".

Let's compare her to Liara, who's accused of being a Creator's Pet and Mary Sue. Liara has actual problems. The Mass Effect series is one long Break the Cutie, Trauma Conga Line for her, and has actual Character Development. Even in ME1, watch her interaction with Benezia.

edited 27th Sep '15 9:12:54 AM by AnotherGuy

The term Mary Sue has more or less becoming a buzzword for "(female) character I don't like".

Yep.

Fun fact: Kirk is a million types more a Sue than any female character that exist in Trek canon (and quite a few fanfic characters), but few Trekkies ever call him out on it.

Thats because Kirk is fat.

First, the characters that were there before can only compare her positively to Bridge Bunny Kelly Chambers. Traynor is actually useful to the mission on three separate occasions (although you can technically miss one of those).

Second, I don't seem to remember her being a recurrent conversation topic when Shep speaks with other characters. Also, badmouthing the teammates is not exactly something that happens a lot in 3, since everyone pretty much understands that there are better things to do than to insult each other (unlike Ashley's racism in 1 or the two fights in 2). Yes, EDI mentions she is skilled, but since it is pretty much the only reason for Traynor to be here (if she hadn't asked for her to stay, then she presumably would have gotten another assignment once the retrofits were done for), it's not exactly Mary Sue material.

Third, Tali and Liara both get the "cute flaws" bit. Sure, they got some trauma (like the ones you mentioned for Liara), but if anything that makes Sam less of a Mary Sue material, not more. The fact that Sam does not have a "real" background of significant events (aside from being saved while on Horizon - usually, I though the Mary Sue characters were supposed to do the saving by themselves, by the way) means that as a tech specialist, most of her career was filled with extremely unsignificant moments. If she was a Mary Sue, then she somehow would have gotten into some espionage, or would have saved the day with her awesome tech skills while in the academy, or would somehow have protected the Alliance from some kind of hacking - anything a "heroic nerd" is supposed to do when the focus of a story. But instead, you learn that she was a good student, with good grades, and that being on the Normandy is actually the first original thing that happened in her life. Oh yeah, she plays space chess. But she was always beaten in the end. Not really Sue-ish.

Fourth, let's check the Mary Sue boxex. I used this list.

• is she particularly handsome? No, and not referred as such either. Her looks are never mentioned by anyone. She does not have any original or significant physical traits either (such as Jack's tattoos). And she is one of the few 3 characters that only has a single outfit (although she gets rid of it in some scenes), while Liara, Tali, Miranda or Ashley all can sport alternative ones.
• Is she physically outstanding? On the contrary, she has some small health problems and a couple of light disorders. She never wields a weapon, and the two objects she manipulates during the game are a touch screen and a toothbrush. She is a very average human, with nothing supernatural to her.
• She has no scars, no tattoos, and the only thing that is remarkable about her is her very british accent - which is logical since she studied in Oxford. And she doesn't sing (unlike Tali, although Tali singing is arguably more of a cute flaw than a natural talent).
• She never looks down on anyone, and is never compared positively to anyone (except Polgara T'susza - and it's played for laughs) to show that she is somehow better. She is not snarky, she hasn't a short temper, she never attacks anyone, and is always respectful towards Shepard.
• She has a very fair background. She mentioned having little money but her good grades allowed her to have a scholarship - so she didn't have to face injustice to get where she is. She isn't extremely rich. She has a normal rank (unlike Kaidan or Ashley who should not be where they are considering where they were back in 1). She already has all her skills when you first meet her, she doesn't learn them at an unusual pace. Also, Legion, Tali or Kasumi probably all are just as skilled as she is, but with the ability to fight too. And she has a job where her so-called "cute flaws" are irrelevant - she isn't a public speaker, she is a nerd in a nerd job.
• The one thing that makes her stand out is that she is extremely smart and skilled. However, have some outstanding quality is basically a requirement if you ever want to board the Normandy. After all, being extremely smart is not exactly unheard of on that Ship (Liara is there too, Kasumi was a passenger, like Wrex), and she shares the deck with a legendary pilot, a legendary soldier, the second most legendary human soldier, the youngest Quarian admiral ever, the second (if TIM counts) largest information broker in the galaxy...and Sam is just smart and good when playing chess(and even then, she only beats Shepard who doesn't look exactly like the reincarnation of Garry Kasparov) and Kepesh Yakshi.

And I could go on for a very long time. Point is: Sam is probably one of the less Mary Sue-ish of the female characters on the Normandy. So maybe you think she is a Creator's Pet of some kind, but calling her a Mary Sue is gratuitous and misses the point.

I cracked up on seeing Traynor get called a Mary Sue. She earned her technical and engineering skills; she got bloody scouted by the Alliance, for fuck's sake.

You know, I actually think Traynor knows how to shoot, just... probably not as well as any of the ground team. After all, I think it's mandatory for recruits to go through weapons training at one point or another.

She strikes me as the girl who, if handed a gun, would say "But I haven't shot anything since Basic!"

Definitely not a Sue, though.

I guess that it's like saying that a Center in basketball knows to shoot three-pointers. Sure, they probably learned that when they were younger, but they haven't done it from a long time and probably suck at it, with few exceptions.

& True. She does seem the type of girl who barely passes her physical assessments.

She'd probably do about as well with a weapon as the ME 2 crew did when the Collectors boarded.

She saves the day more than anyone else on the Normandy combined. I'm a published writer, I know Mary Sue when I see it. She's no different that the eponymous character from A Trekkies' Tale.

Oh, and don't label me. I despise that. I never said "I don't like her". I'm saying she's a Mary Sue with no faults. None.

edited 27th Sep '15 5:46:54 PM by AnotherGuy

A published writer should know that Mary Sue is a bullshit term used exclusively to shame young female writers for daring to make competent characters they can identify with.

Also you realize Trekkies Tale was a parody, right? And the character of Mary Sue herself was far from the thing most harshly mocked?

She saves the day once. She gives useful but non-critical information twice.

Now replay the games and check how many times Joker's supreme piloting skills actually save the day, and lose the chip on your shoulder.

Then please list the faults of Diana Allers, Steve Cortez, Gergory Adams, Karin Chakwas and Gaby Daniels while you're at it, since it seems having no faults automatically somehow makes you a Mary Sue.

P.S.: Steve saves Shep's ass more often than Traynor.

edited 27th Sep '15 5:53:03 PM by Julep

Plus, she saves the day with a TOOTHBRUSH. Like, it's so obviously a joke that I am baffled anyone is taking it seriously.

Chakwas you could say is bigoted against A.I., if you want. That really only comes up in the third game, though, and only briefly in an easily missable conversation with Adams.

Your point still stands regardless.

edited 27th Sep '15 5:55:39 PM by KarkatTheDalek