PARTY PARTY PARTY I WANNA HAVE A PARTY
>mfw expecting every author to be Shakespeare
Okay, Gaben. Let me know when Half Life 3's done, yeah?
edited 15th Feb '14 3:45:53 PM by KSPAM
I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
Owner of Dead End
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Did psychology even exist as a field of study at that time? Replying to an earlier post, I do not feel that realistic interaction and sympathy from the audience are something that comes hand in hand at all. It's not as easy as making interactions be realistic, it has to be entertaining. Then, the audience will care, most of the time. Aiming for realistic human interaction like what Miyazaki said isn't necessary at all, because while sometimes that may help, it isn't the only factor in making characters interesting. Hell, name an anime where the character interactions were so unrealistic that you couldn't care at all.
Anyways, that aside, if the anime industry gets more successful and profitable, sure I'd be happy. I sure as hell don't want them to start pandering to international audiences at all, because their tastes and preferences and cultural familiarity are different than the Japanese, so the type of shows that panders to them will be different than the type we currently have, and I sure as hell won't enjoy that. The anime industry is very much fine as it is, keeping that in mind.
"And you must be Jonathan Joestar!" - Sue
Uh... what moe gutter?
Face Time
*Theatre student mode*
Shakespeare indeed spoke to the human condition, but it was likely more that he was able to wring something profound out of historical precedent. He was indeed a dealer in emotions-characters in his plays became more musical and passionate as emotions rose. But that was one playwright of a practically ancient era.
Also, I think a Japanese-American collaboration is highly unlikely. I've heard that Sunrise worked on some episodes of Batman TAS, but that's probably going to be mostly it-hell, even Sunrise's understanding of the West is dubious at times (e.g. Doozybots).
edited 15th Feb '14 5:38:47 PM by RocketDude
"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel
Killing is my business
Space Dandy and Afro Samurai are Japanese-American collaborations, and fairly successful ones at that.
"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter
Raven Wilder
Except for, y'know, speaking in verse all the time.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
>The problem is that those few moe and fanservice shows make up most of Japanese anime DVD and merchandising sales.
This has little ground in reality. Here's a list of anime that sold over 20k copies per volume last year:
Attack on Titan - 54k Monogatari series S2 - 44k Space Battleship Yamato 2199 - 39k Uta No Prince-sama Maji Love 2000% - 34k Free! -30k Love Live! -28k Infinite Stratos 2 -22k
Only three of them are moe (Monogatari, Love Live!, IS 2), and only three of them have significant amount of fanservice (Monogatari, Free!, IS 2). So it's not like moe and fanservice are the only things that sell, nor do they always go hand in hand.
Owner of Dead End
I'm not even sure Monogatari is moe....so yeah, that's even less.
Hm, Love Live was 2013 eh...damn, time passes more slowly than I thought.
"And you must be Jonathan Joestar!" - Sue
Cute for cuteness sake is OK, but err... Japan's got this weird habit of fetishizing cute, which of course has the unfortunate consequence of peer-pressuring their ladies into staying as "child-like cute" as much as possible.
Obsession with youth (especially youth in females) is a problem with worldwide, but at least in the west - it's the look of teenagers or young adults that get the top marks.
Marketing cute animals like Hello Kitty and Pokemon is OK, weird but OK, but marketing cute girls (who don't even look like teenagers) is going to raise alarm bells.
And no... the excuse that they're just basing on what Japanese women look like doesn't pan out because Japanese women are super-pressured to look young.
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Reymmã
I get the impression at times that "moë" is used as shorthand for whatever may be wrong with the industry. It's a word with a very clear core but nebulous delineations.
However I can see why many enthusiasts are worried by how much there is. Moë elements often rely on copying what is known to appeal to this demographic of otaku, and unlike clichés in other genres, there is often the impression that they are not used because the writers can't think up anything better, but because commercial expectations are stopping them from innovating. (The art style being the most obvious here.) Though I find that it is the more sexual appeal that suffers most from this (see the first half of Guilty Crown for the most careless and out of place fanservice I know of, that seems to be given as token effort to marketing).
Relatedly, there is also a feeling, expressed by Miyazaki, that the otaku making these animations know more about these shows and their tropes than about real people. The same has been said about America superhero comics, that fans and writers are locked into constant repetition (but I have felt it very, very strongly about British comics like the Beano). I have to say that some of the shows I've loved best take conventional stories and tropes to give them clever changes and some injection of reality; Bakemonogatari, Nyarko-San, Toradora, Madoka Magica, most triumphantly Haruhi Suzumiya.
Taking all this into account, much of the problem seen with moë is that one part of the market is taken up by shounen/shoujo stuff that nobody cares much for, while the more adult section is aimed at a small but highly spending demographic who want the same thing repeated. One thing to keep in mind, though: moë doesn't appeal to the masses, but neither do space operas or mecha. The difference is that those minority audiences can be found internationally, while moë is peculiarly Japanese. (And it's not only otaku; shows like K-On! appeal to many adults who have not been able to have children, or wish for affection.)
I'd be interested in looking at what influence the international market has, but it's definitely not dead with how many dubs are being made. Appealing to foreigners can push for more diversity, but it also result in cultural blandness.
What I particularly wish to see is a slice-of-life with pretty but diverse character designs, that has both girls and boys, has them talk about relationships and contraception, and in time brings in their parents and has a few episodes at their workplace. All the while remaining warm and affectionate between everyone. As a reminder that it's not the privilege of little girls.
A blog that gets updated on a geological timescale.
That last sentence sound interesting in a sense. The problem is,unless you execute perfectly it end up.....really, really boring.
x4 I would count Free! as moe. IS 2 on there makes me sad. Yamato had the nostalgia factor going for it; although the fact that it was a really good remake probably counted for more. Not that I would expect there to be, but is there anyplace you can get those numbers without being able to read Japaneses? I wouldn't really expect it, but thought I would ask.
The anime industry in general has to aim for minor demographics as animation in general doesn't have a wide appeal due to the Animation Age Ghetto. So they need to aim for minor demographics to be profitable.
Honestly, I think animation could help the sci-fi/fantasy market in the west. Right now, all the sci-fi shows are stuck in a weird place because movie special effects have gotten very good, but the cheap ones havn't as much, so any such show has to overcome the problem of looking "cheap". If you could actually market a serious animated show in the west it would help alot, but there is no way to do it.
There is probably a certain amount of risk aversion also. Innovation is for when you can afford to be wrong. At a time when they arn't doing all that well, it is hard to sell people on anything that has an above average risk of bombing.
The moe gutter will go away when it stops to be profitable. I wouldn't say it's only moe either. Buddy Complex convinced me that moe isn't the only gutter. I'm not that sure relative to previous years, but I feel like there have been more LN adaptions also, which produces some more interesting stuff, but also alot of junk.
I still can't agree with all these complaints about the 'moe problem' (my terminology, but we all know what I mean). As far as I'm concerned, there is no 'moe problem'. What there might be is a 'using moe/ecchi to fill in for actual plot/characterization/writing problem'. Not the same thing.
To me, one of the greatest things about anime is that it can combine aesthetically appealing characters with pretty much any premise or genre you can think of. You can have a moe comedy show, but you can equally have a moe action show or a moe romance show or a moe horror show. I've seen all of these, and I've seen them all work. But only when the plot/characterization/writing were up to scratch. Anime demonstrates that there is no need for ugliness, and thus, no reason to ever regard moe as a problem.
For that matter, I think it kinda does a disservice to the skilled writers to pretend that the shows they wrote are good merely because they are less moe. I mean, can you imagine going up to George Martin and congratulating him on the Game of Thrones TV show having 'great special effects'? To me, trying to frame bad anime as a 'moe problem' sounds roughly that silly.
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TWO YEARS OF
There's a reason why Miyazaki said the industry is full of otaku who can't draw real girls because they can't stand meeting real people, most people in Japan aren't into that(at least not in that specific way anyway.)
Now if you happened to live somewhere where creepy otaku parents and children might be everywhere, like some specific district where anime events happen a ton or something which is also full of used panties vending machines in its alleys or whatever they were then yeah I guess that might happen.
It's not like it doesn't happen to any extent (at least from what i've talked with men in Japan anyway, or foreign students from Japan) but it doesn't really seem to be any different from what happens in the West, where guys have this dichotomy of good girls(innocent, honest, easily understood, submissive, family-oriented and/or decent at cooking) and whores/bitches(promiscuous, deceptive, the tendency to communicate with subtlety, protecting their social reputation themselves, being rebellious, and/or being a feminist) for some reason (even more confusing to me because they want to have sex either way, and it isn't in the "must have children with this person" sense, it's in the "girls should be offering us blowjobs when we're stressed out/we be nice guys for them" sense.) I mean, it's not like the girls don't use the same dichotomy, but they act it out and know when other girls are doing so(at least for the "good girl" reputation, which is as far as i'm concerned, highly unrealistic for any girl above age 12 to have at least three qualities from those simplified traits I mentioned if she's been in the outside world or the internet) rather than seriously thinking it's true.
edited 16th Feb '14 12:22:56 AM by KirigayaKazuto
MMORPGs are serious business.
And that's why I also said:
Obsession with youth (especially youth in females) is a problem with worldwide, but at least in the west - it's the look of teenagers or young adults that get the top marks.
The ruckus over (bad) moe is like the ruckus over underage beauty pageants, both directly connected with the pedo problem.
"Cute" itself isn't the main problem. It's "child-like cute" being fetishized that's moe's ball & chain, and the (bad) moe genre itself is anime's ball & chain.
As I said, that the (bad) moe genre exist isn't anime's main problem - the problem is that it's seen and treated as the representative genre of anime. Imagine if anime-lovers in general were automatically assumed furries, and not just people who like anthropomorphic animals, but the type who want to have sex with animals.
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TWO YEARS OF
it doesn't mean you didn't say:
edited 16th Feb '14 1:09:03 AM by KirigayaKazuto
MMORPGs are serious business.
Face Time
@Rynnec: Oh, right, I forgot.
"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel
?
Japanese society does peer pressure its ladies to look as youthful as possible. Same with like every other country in the world. The moe genre contributes to the societal pressure.
Or you think I'm blaming "moe" in particular for the problem? If so, no - the problem is way more complex. (Hello, skin-whitening products...)
It's just that for a variety of reasons - Moe is a big target for "it's sexist" "it's pedophilic" "it's misogynistic" criticisms probably cause it's in animation format (often seen as for children) plus it's a form of media (meaning it gets the most attention easily). And apparently, its bad reputation is so bad that it colors the whole of anime, including the perceptions of its most distinguished animator.
As I've repeated said, trying to get rid of (bad) moe is like trying to get rid of (trashy) romance novels. 99.99% of any kind of media is crud. So, what anime has to do (somehow) is get most people to associate it with its most critically acclaimed products, not the crud.
edited 16th Feb '14 1:29:38 AM by probablyinsane
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TWO YEARS OF
Skin-whitening products count as making people look more youthful, particularly to dangerous extents?
(I never really associated lighter skin with being younger, just not having to be outside as much/looking cleaner)
MMORPGs are serious business.
Re: Monogatari. I think if your definition of moe can include a series where the main character was once disembowelled and swung around by his intestines there's something badly wrong with it.
edited 16th Feb '14 2:02:47 AM by probablyinsane
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
TWO YEARS OF
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Also on the food, a lot of people talk about how Asian diets are all that, but they eat processed food, preservative-soaked snacks, and crazy things like honey toast just fine...the only people I've seen who aren't at least a little into several western foods like pizza, cakes and burgers or something are like, over 50 years old. (Sometimes the food is...edited to match local tastes though. Which creates funny things like sweet potato pizza crust) That's only for Japanese and Korean (I don't hang out with Chinese or any other asian much) though. Maybe i'm just underestimating how bad the Western diet is(I always found American restaurants to give hugeass servings too.)
edited 16th Feb '14 2:25:02 AM by KirigayaKazuto
MMORPGs are serious business.
This what I mentioned before. Once you get past a few case, the number of series you could unambiguously define as "moe" is pretty low. There are elements spread throughout anime, but it's basically just Generic Cuteness. Heck, hollywood has the same problem with just about everyone being good looking.
edited 16th Feb '14 2:28:18 AM by kiukiuclk
Told you the "youth" thing was very complicated thing. So yeah, definitely not solely blaming moe for it though moe is part of the very messy problem.
Besides, my stance in this thread has been that to solve the problem of anime's poor rep is to (somehow) not make anime's rep mostly connected to moe's rep unless somehow moe's rep gets better.
Like maybe anime can look up how sci-fi genre (over in the West) managed to turn itself from stigmatized genre to mainstream genre.
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
I don't really get the "fair skinned" thing. Asians and Caucasians are about as pale as each other, we're just a slightly different hue.
@KSPAM Shakespeare is an example of a writer who also knew basic psychology of humans.His plays are so deep and so inspired, that truths are told in terms of how the characters act. For example, the play Othello. The people in that play act realistically and behave realistically and convincingly; there are even scenes where Shakespeare delves into the psychology of its villain, Iago, and other characters.
edited 15th Feb '14 3:05:37 PM by Buzzinator
"You can run, but you can't hide from the Buzzinator!"