Suggestion: Historical Villain Upgrade

While this article has a fine page image, I think it would fit better on the subtrope Demon King Nobunaga for already having a seperate trope for evil depictions of Oda Nobunaga.

For a replacement on Historical Villain Upgrade I'm not altogether sure on. This image of Rasputin might work combined with a normal real life picture◊.

Huh. This is the first time I knew that page exists... I guess a move would be fine, since it fits that trope better.

For the suggestion, I wonder if it's possible to show a villainous portrayal of a historical figure without adding demonic/supernatural aspects to the character. (Oh, and I can't see which is the "normal real life picture" of Rasputin you had in mind, since the URL links to this movie insider website instead)

It links just fine for me. Here's an alternative link◊ for real life Rasputin.

I suppose a non-demonic upgrade would work fine too. It's just a question of finding a notable figure and their adaptation looking and/or doing something remarkably evil.

Moving images to the subtrope they correctly illustrate is generally a good idea. Don't see an exception to that here.

I also vote for a move.

I do like the idea of depicting Rasputin, that's a fantastic example, he is often portrayed as outright evil (as the Anastasia fanart shows). However, I don't like the idea of the comparison image... you can't tell someone is not villainous by a photograph. You can tell he's a human male, not an undead necromancer with magic powers, though... perhaps the "supernatural" angle is good after all.

I don't think the comparison is necessary... the information that you're looking at a "villain upgrade" of an actual historical person and not an evil sorcerer (for example) can go in the caption.

edited 9th Feb '14 2:43:07 AM by rodneyAnonymous

As much as I like comparison shots, I think that's the best way to go.

I agree with moving the current, and the suggestion by itself should be good enough.

I have an objection to the current image solely based on quality. The right side is far too dark to see anything clearly, so I brightened it. It must be an old image since it's wider than 350.

That looks good.

it's better than the current displays the trope fine, but the quality is still in question for me. Still not better than the suggestion.

Hm, that is not a photograph; I think it is definitely an old Japanese man on the left and an armored demon thing on the right. On the other hand, Obviously Evil Rasputin is pretty great. But maybe a frame from that movie instead of fanart of it? [1]◊ [2]◊ [3]◊ Or Rasputin in the movie Hellboy? [4]◊ [5]◊ [6]◊? Or Rasputin in that comic book? [7]◊ [8]◊ And a caption that says "you're looking at a 'villain upgrade' of an actual historical person and not an evil sorcerer" somehow?

Huh, "Grigori Rasputin is depicted as eeeeeevil" is kind of a trope.

edited 9th Feb '14 2:55:17 AM by rodneyAnonymous

I'd definitely be cool with something that looks like the one we have on Everybody Hates Hades. Disneyfied Rasputin seems great.

I'm definitely liking the swastika for that extra unrealistic evil.

I'd still prefer we have a comparison shot, if only to show that the villain is based on an actual historical character, and not simply an Obviously Evil Card-Carrying Villain.

I really don't like the two trends of IP posters believing the image must have all the information in it (the image itself does not stand alone, the caption is part of the page image... not making the most of the caption, especially when there is a hole it could easily fill, is a waste), and treating readers like idiots by spelling everything out exactly.

Adding a second frame is a heavy cost. Does the gain justify it? Not in this (and most) cases, in my opinion. Among other things and subjective style considerations aside, horizontal additions halve the resolution of the "other" image, and vertical additions double the resolution of the whole image. The goal is clear, concise, and witty. It's a net loss either way (huge loss of clarity if horizontal, huge loss of concision if vertical), even assuming the additional frame successfully adds a little clarity, which is debatable.

"This is a real person" is not very much information. The "comparison frame" approach is using a sledgehammer on a thumbtack, and words communicate that message way more clearly than another image anyway.

Something like...

Historical Rasputin: Russian peasant, mystic, and private adviser to the Romanovs. Comic book Rasputin: Demonic warlock on a quest to destroy the world.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:32:26 PM by rodneyAnonymous

I really like that.

That is a very clever way of putting it with a good caption, however the image seems to be too irrelevantly disconnected, it doesn't even resemble the real Rasputin in any way.

Now perhaps I'm just missing the point that that is the purpose of using that particular image entirely to illustrate the immense juxtapositional effect of the trope on this historical figure.

Perhaps we should use an image that at least looks like a otherworldly◊, demonicly possessed, evil satanic Rasputin◊, not just your regular otherworldly demonicly possessed evil satanic warlock?

edited 9th Feb '14 8:19:49 PM by Paktra

Saying it doesn't resemble the real Rasputin in any way is A) a giant exaggeration, and B) good.

a) I know it's good because that means that the image works very well for the trope. and b) by "anyway", I meant the negative of the shadowy figure that, vaguely resembles the real dude.◊

It was kinda of supposed to be a giant exaggeration as this is the nature of the trope.

edited 9th Feb '14 8:30:10 PM by Paktra

I don't understand why that matters at all. Whether a character is recognizable to people familiar with it is, like, the least important criterion ever.

I was referring to people unfamiliar with the character in question. I was under the assumption that an image that is highly unrecognizable to the general public especially one that references an actual person was not good.

But I understand that's the entire point of this trope so, you're right. It was the moot point.

edited 9th Feb '14 8:32:56 PM by Paktra

I still like the Disneyfied one better—it's more Obviously Evil where the comic book version is just Occult.

I do agree that the Anatasia Rasputin is more Obviously Evil but it's hard to look at a guy wearing an electogauntlet with a Nazi flag in the background and figure "eh, he can't be that evil".

@16 leans heavily towards the telling side, but it's better than nothing.