(Starship Troopers) Are The Bugs The Good Guys?

I'm re-watching the movie version of ST with Riff Trax and I had forgotten this (relatively) subtle plot point. The Feds are invading their homes based on information given to us by some quasi-1984ish government. I mean, I guess Rico isn't such a bad guy but he's fighting for a bad country.

These are the same bugs that make an asteroid hit earth, killing millions?

We don't know that though. That was my point in the OP. The only source we have that it came from this is supremely unreliable. In fact, anything said by the government of the film should probably just be disregarded as lies and propaganda. That was kinda the point of the movie after all.

The bugs launch multiple asteroids at earth in the first film. It wasn't just one. One time is coincidence, two times is suspicious, and three times is enemy action. The bugs send repeated attacks and earth has to arrange for defenses against them.

No the bugs are not good guys. In every piece of Starship Troopers media they can't be considered good guys or really bad guys. They are however consistently considered very alien and aggressive.

It is also made clear in the various media including the film that the Bugs intend to be the dominate species along the way to that they intend to kill off humanity. In the book they are a significantly more intelligent wielding energy weapons and sophisticated technology. They also have alien allies like the "skinnies" a tall gaunt alien race.

The movie and book shouldn't be compared from what I can tell. Namely the movie is very much against the fascist government while the book...isn't. Or so I hear. But that topic seems very hairy and it has nothing to do with the movie anyway.

Also the Bugs didn't start the war. Wasn't it said that humans landed on their planet? If they were seeking to dominate the galaxy or eliminate humanity, why didn't they seek out and destroy us before that?

Considering all the source material is related it is relevant to the topic at hand. The movie does draw some of it's material from the book.

Humans and bugs are both rapidly expanding species and it is pointed out that while trying to settle inhabited planets. The bugs response is to eradicate the humans and start launching attacks that a mount to the use of WMD's.

Also the bulk of the bugs are well bugs. They are driven by the giant brain bugs and in turn are tied to a supposed higher intelligence above them. Kinda hard to be a "good guy" when one side is largely mindless giant space bugs.

edited 1st Feb '14 7:01:01 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Okay, maybe good guys was the wrong term. Consider it kinda like Rooting for the Empire but intentional. The Mobile Infantry and the government it fights for is Not A Good Thing. I think we can all agree that the movie had that message. As such, the bugs killing them and defending themselves is Not A Bad Thing.

That's all I was trying to get at.

The bugs really aren't defending themselves from the overly aggressive humans. They are the initial aggressors in context of the story.

If anything the movie is two sides reacting to each other by extremes.

Forgot. Not just reaction of extemes but two groups of extremes reacting to each other in extreme measures.

The Federation with their Facist like structure seeking to wipe out the bug threat. The bugs with their many mindless hordes of disposal troops seeking to exterminate humanity. Both sides more then willing use any variety of means to achieve their equally destructive goals.

edited 1st Feb '14 7:25:47 AM by TuefelHundenIV

How do we know the Feds didn't blow up those sites themselves as a premise for war? It's happened before.

Because we get to see the big asteroid darkening the skies over the city before it hits?

max: Multiple asteroid attacks including the one that wiped out Buenos Aires. Your suggestion is a searching for a villain that doesn't exist. They don't need to carry out conspiracy theorist levels of imaginary black flags. The bugs are genuinely violent and aggressive and carry out the attacks themselves.

Both sides are two types of extremes reacting extremely. They both seek to wipe each other out.

Bugs launch asteroids at human settled worlds or wipe out colony outposts to the last man leaving bloody mangled bodies behind. Something you get to witness happening to military troops as they fight the bugs. The bugs idea of gathering intelligence is to suck your brains out through a straw. Bugs don't take prisoners so much as they suck the brains out of survivors.

Humans treat the mindless bugs like glorified lab specimens as noted in the early parts of the movie where giant bugs are being dissected by the students. The bugs are treated as nothing more then more then mindless vicious hive animals. Partially true until the discover of the brain bugs and the shocking realization that the bugs are organized as a military. The humans also heavily utilize tactical nukes and have little compunction about using questionable military tactics that cost them thousands of lives, and are not afraid to use extreme measures to ensure they can prosecute the war.

The film can be roughly summed as Future Human Space Nazis vs Future Bug Space Stalinist Commies. Bother murdering the shit out of each other with gusto.

edited 1st Feb '14 8:05:08 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Well, that and an attempt to make a vicious Take That! to the original book that got so swallowed by it's own Camp that it became quite entertaining from, I think, an entirely unintended angle.

In response to the OP, though, no. They attacked us first. Unless there'a an in-movie reason to suspect that those attacks weren't what they seemed, that's what happened. If we're going to come up with a conspiracy theory, hell, why not say the bugs themselves are just an attempt by Weyland-Yutani to build their own ultimate predator that got out of control (yet again?)

edited 1st Feb '14 9:11:04 AM by edgewalker22

edge: I think it may be a broader take that to the book and other similar forms of entertainment. It certainly got caught up in its own camp which is part of why I like the movie.

I like the movie for it's soundtrack. Dat Poledouris.

We're not talking a striaght film here though so the conspiracy stuff doesn't fly. The Feds are all about propaganda, misinformation, Jingoism. It's really not a stretch to say "don't believe everything they tell you" is it?

Also the humans started the war by trying to take their planets:

"Some say the bugs were provoked by human attempts to colonize within the AQZ, that a "live and let live" policy is preferable to war with the bugs..."

Even if we accept that they did attack Earth, it was a counterattack.

edited 1st Feb '14 9:32:01 AM by Nikkolas

If the comics had any canon value, what I remember is that first contact with them was an accident. The Mobile Infantry, including Private Rasczak, land on a seemingly uninhabited world and get wiped out by ravenous burrowing bugs.

As for the Mormon colony, they attempted to colonize in a demilitarized zone. Turns out the subterranean guys quietly staked a claim there, again.

Nikko:Yeah it is still a stretch. No it isn't self defense. You really are reaching and stretching for something that isn't there. They are not defending themselves. Given word of god and the nature of the story as it is known the bugs attacked first.

Entering into a space that is seemingly inhabited by an aggressive animal is not an attack. Especially if said species never attempts to communicate your mistake in the first place. If humanities first encounter with the bugs is being shredded by warrior bugs that is not defending themselves that is them being aggressive up front and attacking.

If you are an intelligent species and your first response to a issue with another intelligent species is to rip them to pieces and then use WMD's against them you are not being defensive you are being offensive.

The Federation only learns that the bugs are lead by an actual intelligence for certain by the end of the movie. The asteroid gives them the idea that the bugs are intelligent but they are not sure to what extent. The disaster on Klendathu sends them searching for the possible smart bugs.

When you launch a first strike and forgo any attempts at diplomacy or communication and instead launch attacks including weaponized asteroid as a first strike followed by repeated attacks with asteroids that is not defensive by any stretch of the imagination.

Before I forget. You talk of not trusting anything yet you quote one of the Federations reporters doing propaganda work.

Deboss: I think the comics might be the same story in a different light with more details.

edited 1st Feb '14 10:19:57 AM by TuefelHundenIV

How exactly are the bugs supposed to open diplomatic relations with the humans...? You yourself already said the average bug is most certainly not sapient. More than likely when the human invaders first came upon them, they reacted just like any animal defending its territory.

As for trusting the broadcaster, why would they lie about STARTING the war? It be in the Federation's best interests to either: 1) make it a grand crusade-style expansion, or 2) make themselves look like the victims. Offhandedly commenting that "we tried to take over their planet and they retaliated" serves no purpose in their propaganda machine.

Forgot this part too:

"Disregarding Federal warnings, Mormon extremists established Port Joe Smith, a settlement of 300 on Tango Urilla, a system just inside the Arachnid Quarantine Zone.

Too late they realized tha Tango Urilla had already been chosen by other colonists — Arachnids !

Now body parts litter the ruined streets of Port Joe Smith.

The council asks future colonists to obey all official Federal warnings. Would you like to know more ?"

edited 1st Feb '14 1:49:23 PM by Nikkolas

The movie is clearly Bug Propaganda.

Candid: Lol. Bugs will rule the world.

Niko:No where did they say they tried to take over or invade the planet. Invasion or take over implies they knew the bugs were intelligent and rightfully held the planet before hand rather then a type of hostile fauna. Yet we know that information does not become certain until the very end of the movie.

The humans effectively stumbled on to the arachnids who proved to be an openly violent alien species. The higher caste with the intelligence never choose to communicate or even attempt to are assumed to be aggressive fauna of some sort. And the phrase from the reporter is opened with here say not factual information. The phrase "Some Say" is not a statement of fact but opinions and here say. Opinions do not equal fact. There is also no proof that bugs were on the planet of initial conflict first or didn't come after the humans and then just attacked to take the world. It is never looked into or covered by the movie.

There is the fact the federation does establish a quarantine zone and directs everyone to stay out of it even demonstrating that the bugs are hostile. Given that they are aware a race of purpose made organic murder machines and consciously take the steps to curtail intrusion it is a huge stretch to suggest they humans knowingly landed there and started the war.

A small group of humans ignores this and gets chopped to bits. But if we are going to judge an entire race by the actions of a small segment the bugs are unreasonably violent and aggressive. They don't start with any attempts at diplomacy or communication or even what would be defense they start out with naked offensive aggression.

The bugs have the ability to communicate and organize with their more intelligent caste yet they choose to make no effort to do so. They even demonstrate the ability to control drones to a degree sufficient enough for the drones to capture or disable rather then just outright kill humans.

The drones are not very intelligent but that is quite different from the "Brain bug" and as revealed in the sequels even higher tiers of intelligence for the bugs. In fact said intelligent caste instead of choosing to try and tell the weird pink squishy animals with buildings and structures that the planet is theirs they choose to instead just wipe them out. That is not defensive that is offensive.

The bugs kill the first strange beings of a new race who stumbled onto a world they had no way of knowing was actually occupied by another intelligent race if the bugs were actually there first to begin with. Not only do the bugs choose to never communicate before the war or even attempt to do so they open all encounters with open aggression and deliberately kick off a war by launching a WMD style weapon at the humans home world.

None of their worlds are marked or other wise indicated as being bug worlds until they attack after the fact. They give no warnings, make no attempts at all to communicate on any level, or do anything that suggests they are anything but attack first aggressors.

The bugs are not defending themselves they are the aggressors. They deliberately kick off the war with a WMD attack preceded by a chain of brutal massacres. And they dont't any target that would actually suggest a defensive strike like say a settlement in the quarantine zone, a military expedition, or outpost, but a direct attack on Earth itself. Klendathu doesn't get attacked and invaded until after the bugs attack earth first. It gets invaded and attacked after the bugs destroy a city and kill millions.

It would be like walking through what looks like a public park only to have some psycho jump out of the bushes and shoot anyone without warning, who wanders into what looks like an empty public park. No signs, no warnings, or any other indicators that it is private property and trespassers will be shot. The person doing the shooting isn't defending themselves they are the aggressor. The other person was trespassing yes but they had no way of knowing that they were and were given no warning to leave before they are killed. Same thing with the bugs. They are not defensive they are offensive.

The Federation decides the bugs are deliberately attacking them with little or no provocation and need to be dealt with. The only group in this showing restraint is the Federation. They don't start out trying to kill every bug on the planets they find them on. They instead try to quarantine the area they find them to avoid trouble.

No matter how you try to stretch this the bugs are not acting defensively but start off with open offense. They have the capability to do otherwise but choose not to. They go so far as to deliberately launch an attack that starts the war.

edited 1st Feb '14 2:11:53 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Comparing the book and film (Yes, I do), I think the "contradictions" actually resolve themselves quite well.

The book tells us the events from Rico's POV. The movie tells us the events from the media's POV.

That's one reason why there's so many news blurbs showing up in the middle of the film, and why it can be debated as thoughtless or satirical.

Interesting view on the differences. But I think the differences in the first film and the book are bigger. We get Ricos POV in the movie as well as the media interludes. We also get Rico's view of the failed assault on Klendathu. The first movie also lacks the power armored troopers, the bugs humanoid allies the skinnies, and the technologically advanced bugs who wield energy weapons.

The campy obviously propaganda over the top media clips certainly add to the campy atmosphere of the movie to a large degree. I think the clips add the most camp aside from the actors larger then life behaviors, actions, and attitudes.

As I recall the nature of the conflict in the book compared to the movie is also different. The movie bugs are more animal like controlled by the brain bugs and higher tier bugs.

edited 3rd Feb '14 8:33:23 PM by TuefelHundenIV

How does a species with no technology fire a fairly small rock several lightyears across space and manage to score a direct hit?

True true, but then why would the troopers attack the planet for no reason, wasting who knows how many resources in the process ? Does it have some sort if resource?

I've heard all sorts of stuff about the commentary of the movie so i decided to go buy the damn DVD so I could hear it for myself what exactly was said.

Verhoeven: But what it says of course in this scene is that the war did not start, was not started by the Bugs. [...] In the beginning of the movie, you think basically the bugs attacked, that the bugs are bad, that the bugs have to be destroyed. This is Klendathu it has to be destroyed! That's what the first item of the movie says. But now later you find out that it's only part of history. Because the real history started with the Mormon extremists setting up a colony in a territory they were not asked to come into. Which is Klendathu, let's say the Arachnid territory. And we, basically after they retaliate, they retaliate by killing the Mormons but also by sending a meteor to Buenos Aires as we see later in the movie. Then we get really pissed off and forget about all that. "Oh look at that meteor! How bad! We have to attack!" And that I think is the politics of the movie.

So the Bugs did send the meteor but it is acknowledged that they were retaliating. They didn't start this war.

I also found the last snippet I included very agreeable - the "you can only presetnt this topic in this way." You find that a lot of the more objective books about Nazis for example tned ot come under fire because people don't want that. They want them to be demonized. They want to believe Heinrich Himmler collected human body parts like Ed Gein or Jeffrey Dahmer. It doesn't surprise me that a newspaper would criticize the filmfor being "favorable"t o fascists because it at no point says outright "these are bad people."

Not that Voerhoven is on the side of the bugs. He specifically refers to the Brain Bug as "an evil god." The writer meanwhile was surprised that people felt sorry for the Brain Bug in the end. I know I felt bad for it.

But you know, let's just strip away all the political messages and bullshit. Just think of the attack on Klendathu and the egotistical, boasting "war! Hell yeah!" Mobile Infantry. Don't you just ge ta huge grin on your face when all their hoorah bullshit is interrupted by the Arachnids stomping the holy hell out of them? I know I do.