Unclear Description: For Want Of A Nail

In the Image Pickin' thread there was a dispute whether this refers only to time travel / elseworld or includes any situation where a small change/event has large consequences.

The first line of the description refers only to the first, but many examples and the trope namer are of the latter.

I vote for a trope transplant, with this trope being about "small things bring about great consequences", and turning the description (along with Butterfly of Doom) into subtropes of this one.

I am inclined to say that the distinction is The Same, but More Specific. And that's not getting into the problems of transplanting a trope with 1084 wicks.

In that case, expand the definition.

But what are we going to do with Butterfly of Doom? Make that a subtrope of this one?

Butterfly of Doom is when the ripple effect has a bad outcome. I suppose it could act as a subtrope.

Please provide some context for the rest of us who haven't read that IP thread?

The second sentence of my post, basically. Yeah, I had to rush a bit when writing this OP. Some people argued that a certain image could not be used because it didn't depict a time travel/elseworld scenario.

I did, specifically.

Anyway, I think we should also have It's a Wonderful Plot as a subtrope as well.

This is a tricky one. On the one hand, I would argue Tropes Are Not Narrow. On the other hand, this is an objective trope within the genre of time travel or elseworlds, and mostly speculation outside that. Aside from that, I'm seeing a number of pages around this subject that I'm having trouble distinguishing from one another. Hm...

I am fine with this listing examples from stories where the effects of a small thing are shown, with emphasis on how large the effects of the small thing were.

Relevant post of mine from the IP thread:

I really shouldn't be pulling up the Internet Archive in Image Pickin', but this trope is so old that it may be one of those overly-defined tropes that was shaped too much by the limited starting bank of examples. This one is a little different than most because the main problem appears to be the pre-existing term it was named with.

Meanwhile, there seems to have been confusion about this trope's definition as far back as BOD's YKTTW, and it turns out I'd suggested the two tropes might actually be the same before, not long after launch.

Why don't we just call it what it is and merge these into Butterfly Effect? It already has 54 wicks redirecting to Butterfly of Doom. Very important not to use "The".

edited 28th Aug '13 2:57:25 PM by Rethkir

That's a redirect to a different trope.

I mean call Butterfly of Doom Butterfly Effect, broaden the description to not only include negative effects, and merge For Want Of A Nail.

I think Butterfly of Doom is a valid subtrope, considering that it often acts to discourage changing the past. And merging it sounds like a lot of work.

Well, For Want Of A Nail, as far as I understand the use of it outside TV Tropes, refers to a small action with huge consequences, and time travel or similar is not necessary. To force the inclusion of those elements is narrowing a phrase down past how it's actually used.

What I'm getting at as the description and image caption tell me is that if one little thing happened, everything could have been different. It's not just someone doing something small and suddenly plot happening.

Given that this has over a thousand wicks I'd like to see some misuse stats before agreeing to a plan. We might be able to get away with just a cleanup.

edited 28th Aug '13 6:20:23 PM by StarSword

Without time travel, the concept is merely retrospective (not to mention speculative) so the cause/effect must be invoked in-universe to qualify as an example.

I think a lampshade or other highlight of it is enough.

I think there could be a split.

Butterfly of Doom involves time travel and the protagonist causing it and this involves alternate timelines though I'm not sure if the distinction is important.

An all-knowing/omnipresent narrator could simply tell us. The Grim Reaper, God, a ghost/spirit could show a character "what could have been". An oracle/seer, could tell people. The story could show every step from nail to gigantic snowball. Showing what happened because of the nail without showing an alternative.

Like a hitman missing because the target bent down to pick up a penny, then the snowballing have starts... The snowball would clearly not have happened if the target was dead, you don't have to show the alternative reality/timeline where the snowball didn't happen.

Butterfly of Doom involves negative effects first and foremost. And I have no issues with @20.

A.k.a. the audience speculating what might have happened with the proverbial nail (e.g. how to avoid that Idiot Plot) is Not An Example, just Wild Mass Guessing.

edited 29th Aug '13 4:36:03 AM by Stratadrake

There are examples made not by fans, but by the authors, though.

Megaman Battle Network is one, where Dr. Light researched networking instead of robotics.

Therefore, this trope should at least be about canon examples of how things could be different if a small thing changed, or how a small thing can have a big consequence.

We might need to figure out what to do with the fanfic section, though, if everyone agrees with .

edited 29th Aug '13 7:38:43 AM by KarjamP