Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Israel NGO bill, seen as targeting left-wing groups, crosses first hurdle:
Called a "transparency bill" by its sponsor, far-right Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, the legislation would require NG Os to give details of overseas donations in all their official publications if more than half their funding comes from foreign governments or bodies such as the European Union.
The United States and European Union have raised their concerns publicly and privately about the legislation as well as moves against dissenting voices in the NGO community and in the arts and media under the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Opponents of the proposed law say it is discriminatory because it is mainly groups that oppose the policies of Israel's administration towards Palestinians which receive money from foreign governments and the EU.
Private funds from overseas, such as money donated to Israeli groups that support Jewish settlements on occupied land Palestinians seek for a state, are not addressed in the bill.
In a statement before the parliamentary vote, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel called the NGO bill a "discriminatory law that harms democracy ... (and) supports censorship and political persecution".
Netanyahu, defending the legislation as "democratic and necessary", has seemed to allude to foreign monetary support for Israeli groups backing Palestinian statehood.
Addressing members of his conservative Likud party last week, Netanyahu drew parallels with Spain's Basque country where various separatist groups used peaceful or violent means to further their cause. "Try to imagine Israel funding Basque independence organisations," he said.
United Earth
I can imagine it easily, what's his point?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
That the Spanish government would be very angry, I think.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
Let's just say that he doesn't know much of what's going on in Spain right now or how the Basque independence process is working on, and leave it at that. But really, what I meant with "what's his point?" was a number of things:
- You know that being critical of a government's opression of a minority is different from supporting independence for that minority, right?
- By that analogy, are you claiming that Palestinians are citizens of Israel, sworn to its Basic Laws and protected by them?
There's just no way for his analogy to look good. If he talks about funding advocacy for minorities who attempt to secede from governments that don't acknowledge them as citizens and oppress them, those governments will find no sympathy in attempting to ban that. If he talks about doing so for cases where minorities are full citizens and treated fairly by the government, then that doesn't apply to his own case.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
edited 9th Feb '16 2:15:10 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
(Avatar by Coffee)
To be completely honest, I struggle to find a pair of politicians with two brain cells between them here.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
A nice butterfly
To which MY politicians ask "What is a brain cell? Would you give me money if I took one? We're a third world country, it's ok!"
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Thus speaks yoneld:
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Replace "we're a third world country, it's okay" with "we're supposed to be a developed country so don't tell anyone" and you get Israeli politicians.
The dark Mage of the playground
"Brain cells are for ashkenazi leftist educated jerks"
A nice butterfly
Whats the problem with the ashkenazi...?
edited 9th Feb '16 8:12:36 AM by Aszur
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Thus speaks yoneld:
We're Israel's WAS Ps, basically. White privilege is a thing in Israel too, and Ashkenazis are about as white as we get.
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
V
Haven't Ashkenazis held the majority of major political posts in Israel's history?
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
But the Mizrahim drive a lot of the more conservative currents, right?
United Earth
Dixiecrats.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The dark Mage of the playground
They are driven by a self feeding look of both inferiority complex and persecution complex, are led by exaagarations of events that date to just about the foundation of the country and prefer a jingoistic-machoistic attitude to anything because they dont have any democratic tradition or any actual ideaology whatsoever.
Note that this wording is attempting to evoke a certein comparison, as if it was said by certein people. this is intended.
edited 9th Feb '16 11:36:53 AM by Superdark33
Thus speaks yoneld:
Yes. All of Israel's prime ministers have been of Polish or Ukrainian origin, and of the presidents only two were not Ashkenazi.
They do tend to be more conservative than the Ashkenazis, although these days it's less of an ethnic split and more of a center vs. periphery split, with Tel Aviv and Haifa (and their surroundings) being more secular and liberal while the development towns are more conservative and traditional.
edited 10th Feb '16 2:29:00 AM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
(Avatar by Coffee)
An MK from the Likud, Dr Anat Barko, said that there is no Palestinian nation because Arabic doesn't have a P-phoneme.
*Insert "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer here*
... I hope there are some seriously embarrassed teachers trying to sink into the floor at their utter failure to teach basic logic chains...
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... *insert Flat "What" here*
Anyway, good thing that the rest of the attending MKs weren't so deluded, if only by pointing out that "Palestine" isn't a loanword as this idiot is claiming, but rather an Anglicization of the actual Arabic word... which starts with an "F" sound. No idea how "F" became "P", BTW.
In response, Herzog dared Netanyahu to annex the territories. "Let's see what happens then," he said.
edited 11th Feb '16 1:02:36 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
(Avatar by Coffee)
I don't think Herzog is trying to provoke a war. He's just calling Bibi a coward. The chances of Bibi actually formally annexing the carpets are slim because it'll probably (hopefully) be the death knell of his political career.
And, well, "Palestine" ostensibly comes from the Biblical פלשתים (plishtim - philistines) or some Roman corruption thereof. It's clearer in Hebrew, where's it's spelled פלשתינאים.
Thus speaks yoneld:
Falasteen is actually an Arabicization (is that the right word?) of the Roman name Palaestina, named after the Philistines.
Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
אני די בטוח שהכוונה היא לספח את ׳השטחים׳, לא את ׳השטיחים׳.
edited 11th Feb '16 2:26:57 AM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
(Avatar by Coffee)
It's a joke, Yoneld.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... I don't get the joke, to be honest. Does it require knowledge of Hebrew wordplay, or something?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
(Avatar by Coffee)
"Territories" (שטחים shtakhim) sounds like "carpets" (שטיחים shtikhim).
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
You shouldn't even allow the semblance of hypocrisy and do it anyway. Or not bother punishing Arab M Ks when they do their thing. Willfully being hypocritical just because you can maybe argue the context is besides the point.