Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
So I take it that those Israelis have absolutely no problem with the fact that their behavior serves as an unambiguous reinforcement/justification for the Complete Monster image that practically all Palestinians have about Israelis in general?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
No, see, they still want to get to do the behaviour, but without the reinforcement, which basically means stopping people from talking about it.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Well, evidently the photo came from someone who was among them, ergo it's most likely one of them who took it. If they didn't want anyone to know about it, they shouldn't have taken photos of themselves in the act.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
The Sderot resident that took this picture shared it with his friends in good faith and in confidence; it wasn't supposed to end up in the hands of anti-zionist scum. This is a violation of privacy.
Unless he or she posted it on Twitter or other public space with no confidentiality. Then they're an idiot.
edited 2nd Feb '15 8:32:07 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
"Anti-Zionist scum"? How is pointing out the similarity between a caricature and reality a scum behavior? Although I suppose it depend on the tone of the original article. I can't read French, so I don't know.
That said, I find really hard to feel sorry for these particular guys in the picture. Watching so blasély the death of hundred of people, while waving your flag proudly, is really assholish.
edited 2nd Feb '15 8:57:55 AM by Heatth
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
I think the Handle was using the phrase ironically. Like if you were saying that Republicans were appalled that their donor list had been leaked to those weaselly lie-bral Democrats.
What's precedent ever done for us?
V
Not that it matters. You'll probably find the same names on the Democrats list of donors!
United Earth
I was being ironic... you antisemite!
HGW XX/7
Non-story.
The Australian Press Council did not actually punish the SMH for the fact that the cartoon showed an Israeli resident watching the bombardment of Gaza like a TV show. The offence was the cartoon's "gratuitous emphasis on the Jewishness of its subject":
You'll note that the Israeli in question also has a big nose, which is at best an unfortunate reproduction of a classic antisemitic trope and at worst an endorsement of it. So the issue is not that the cartoon depicted Israeli atrocities, it is that it equated Israeli atrocities with the Jewish faith.
But then, I wouldn't expect anything like the five minutes Googling that took from a Dieudonne love-in site called "quenelle plus"... [rolleyes]
edited 2nd Feb '15 11:43:10 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Ah, I see. That is fair.
But while I don't disagree, at all, that the link with the religion is unfortunate, it serves to highlight the complicate relationship of the State of Israel and the Jewish faith. I mean, I believe that even within Israel there is of whether the country is, or should be, "Jewish state", in the religious sense. The fact that this article mention that the David Star creates a links to the religion shows that complexity, since the star also create a link to the secular state itself, as it shows prominently in its flag.
HGW XX/7
I think that's a separate issue to be honest - the fact that the Israeli right dishonestly try to equate Israel with Judaism when it suits their agenda doesn't mean we who are not Israeli rightists should play their game in everything else. No question of Jewish identity justifies holding Jews collectively responsible for Israeli warcrimes, any more than the presence of the shahada on the flag of IS would justify the same treatment for Muslims.
edited 2nd Feb '15 12:23:11 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Sure. I was just pointing out that the confusion between Israel and Judaism is something that exist and it is not necessarily something imposed by foreigners. It happens inside Israel also. Furthermore I was pointing out that the David Star isn't solely a Judaism symbol, but also an Israeli one. If a charge happens to indicate a Israeli citizen by giving the the star they are not, necessarily, implying religiosity as well. It is not different than coding a character by their country flag or colors.
(not that it was the case with this charge specifically, though. The Judaism was implied by the kippah alone.)
HGW XX/7
It seems we are in violent agreement.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Indiana Solo
I'd just like to point out that civilians turning out to watch war from a "distance" is a thing that's been around since the american civil war at a bare minimum, and likely for ages before that.
I'm baaaaaaack
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Doesn't make it right.
Oh really when?
Also beside the point. Furthermore, this isn't an actual war. It is not like the livelihood of these civilians depend on the results of that battle. They are watching a massacre, now a war.
United Earth
The example from the American Civil War ended up disrupted when the troops ran through that picnic.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Indiana Solo
Just saying it's not exactly out of the norm. Human curiosity and what not.
Massacre/War is a matter of debate in this situation, and they don't know the specifics of whats going on anyway. They just see explosions and smoke.
Which is why you shouldn't sit around watching people go to war. In their attempts to kill eachother, you might get caught in the crossfire.
I'm just saying it's a bit...presumptuous to write off people watching explosions in the distance as evil/morally wrong. They're just bystanders to the whole thing.
edited 2nd Feb '15 10:40:18 PM by Joesolo
I'm baaaaaaack
United Earth
We'll agree to disagree on a fair value judgment of those actions, then. But one thing we all know for sure: cool folks don't look at explosions.
Indiana Solo
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
United Earth
New Greek finance minister accused of anti-Semitism. Accusations seem rather flimsy, from what I'm reading there.
“The fact that my comments were supported by reports in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz was not deemed a sufficient defense against the charge of anti-Semitism,” he wrote in December 2010 about the incident.”
At the time, SBS said Varoufakis was a worthy commentator on economic issues but that he was no expert on Middle East politics and should therefore refrain from presenting one-sided analyses of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The “particular anti-lsraeli line of his commentary could be reasonably held to have assisted in the promotion of negative stereotypes about Jews and more particularly Israeli Jews,” the radio station stated at the time.
A procrastination in of itself
It seems to be the standard "if you say something bad about Israel you are anti-Semitic" line of bullshit that we get all the time.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
It's probably more intended to hurt Varoufakis' reputation and credibility.
Crossposted in the European Politics thread.
edited 5th Feb '15 9:09:54 AM by Quag15
HGW XX/7
This post was thumped by the Stick of Post Thumping
Sydney Morning Herald editor had to apologize profusely for a cartoon depicting an Israeli enjoying the Gaza massacre like a TV Show.
As a Real Life picture of Sderot residents enjoying the show, er, shows, it's barely a caricature at all.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.