Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The reports from Reuters I've read said that it was a jeep, which means it would be a very real surprise if none of the wounded soldiers are in critical condition.
United Earth
Forbes: 7 Steps The US Military Should Take To Be More Like The IDF.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Actually, 2006 showed the IDF to be something of a paper tiger when it got engaged in a serious fight, and according to Ynet, things haven't improved since then.
Netanyahu had better keep this one limited, or things could get seriously messy.
What's precedent ever done for us?
United Earth
That's not the IDF's fault, though, that's the voters wanting everything for nothing. Or rather, wanting victory with zero lives lost. Money however is given to the military in abundance. Spare no expense.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
And perhaps, something to do with the culture of the IDF neglecting anything that isn't to do with fighting, such as Logistics or even Common Sense?
I was under the impression that the IDF had serious problems with the morale of reservists during the 2006 war.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Both Hezbollah and the IDF are saying that everything is back to normal now.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
@Handle: Read my links. The problem's a bit more serious than that.
What's precedent ever done for us?
V
And hasn't the IDF faced budget cuts recently?
All wars are terrible, but so are some peaces. A just resolution to the overall conflict pretty much requires a significant Israeli military deafeat at some point, so a war that leaves Israel weakened is prefferable to a war that doesn't.
Thus speaks yoneld:
Hoo boy. Another war. I love the Middle East.
Uhh… Israel getting defeated means more war, which is definitely not preferable, unless you want to see Israel destroyed…
edited 29th Jan '15 6:07:22 AM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The big catch is that while Israel's gradual ethnic cleansing of Palestine is bad, Hezbollah is presently participating in an even more bloody and energetic campaign of genocide. Assad and his buddies getting the kudos of administering a bloody nose to the regional bugbear is something that the Middle East absolutely does not need, and it's fucking stupid for Netanyahu to hand them the opportunity rather than sitting back and letting everyone else handle Syria. The situation there is messy enough without the toxic I/P issue getting hauled in as well.
What's precedent ever done for us?
You're probably right.
United Earth
That's news to me. I thought that kind of thing was mostly ISIS's specialty, and Hezbollah were the inclusive, "everyone can join the Party of God" guys?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Thry're working with Assad, who has a nasty habit of gassing and otherwise massacring his own people. There's even photographic evidence of Hezbollah militants beside the types of launchers used in the regime's chemical-weapons attacks. I'll grab some links when I'm not phoneposting.
What's precedent ever done for us?
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Hezbollah is a strictly Shia Muslim organization — specifically, the vehemently anti-Sunni kind of Shia who'd rather have the Shia in ascendant dominance over non-Shia Muslims (if they would even allow them to live), even though they don't say it out loud.
edited 29th Jan '15 1:42:15 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
I think he meant Christians/Druze.
edited 29th Jan '15 1:42:25 PM by FFShinra
(Avatar by Coffee)
@Handle: This guy is surprisingly neutral and sensible. I wish there were more people like him...
Re: shooting war: Hizballah shot a Cornet anti-tank missile at an unarmoured vehicle, so there are two dead and seven wounded. That said, the papers say Hizballah passed a missive through the Lebanese army and UNIFIL that they don't want to escalate the conflict, so I hope Bibi gets restrained by the less-stupid members of his cabinet and does not start another pointless election war. (There's speculation that the hit he's seeing in the polls is partly because the last one went oh-so-swimmingly well).
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Hamas apparently may be interested in renewing talks with Israel following a slow in funding. And there are allegations that some of the construction material earmarked for Gazan reconstruction has wound up on the black market as well. Business as usual, then.
United Earth
Crash Course, man. Accept no substitutes.
@Marq: sigh, I know some pan-islamists and pan-arabists that would feel very disappointed. Can you source those claims, though? That'd be useful.
edited 30th Jan '15 7:32:10 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Still fishing for sources, but in the meantime, here's a Hezbollah guy with one of Assad's chemical weapons launchers
◊.
edited 30th Jan '15 10:26:06 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
The law in the night
So much for a red line that shouldn't be crossed.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
IIRC the Chem Weapon launchers also launched conventional munitions.
Who watches the watchmen?
'Optimistic'? It's Assad's hired goon squad versus the IDF, whose reputation precedes them. I'm not seeing any good outcome to this war, just a lot of corpses.
What's precedent ever done for us?