Help with writing a subversion of Never a Self-Made Woman

So 'Bob' is a main character who is part of the Five-Man Band, meanwhile 'Jane' appears, a goverment official and her dealings are a subplot. Much later it's revealed that Jane is Bob's wife and she joins in on the action. I wanted to use this because A. Jane's perspective allows for foreshadowing and some explanation of certain aspects of the setting that wouldn't force me to go out of my way to include B. it allows me to ensure she is a developed character who is defined by things outside of her relationship with a man.

• The only thing I'm worried about is that the twist (although it's not a major twist in the series by any means) could be seen as an Ass Pull (The fact that it is explicitly mentioned that he IS married and that it makes sense in-universe for them to have different last names is an attempt to avoid it)

Have more than one female character. If a diversity of female characters are there, if one female character fits one stereotype/cliché, no one is gonna care.

Well there's actually several other female characters, I was refering mostly to having it not seem like it comes out of nowhere and not giving away the twist too early.

eh... doesn't look like she has anything to do with Never a Self-Made Woman to me.

that trope is when a woman is in charge/successful, but it turns out she has a man to thank for it. and from what i understand, the Characters as Device part of the trope refers to the man. as he enables the trope.

because a woman helping a girl get into a position is... i don't know if there's a trope here for it but it obviously is different.



Anyway. We don't initially know if she is married (or has a rich father, or connections with a powerful man) from what you describe. so it isn't that trope.

my suggestion: she is introduced to have got her position because of her connections with a Man from the government (or Bob, whichever you prefer). it is then subverted because while she IS connected with the guy, we later learn that she worked her ass to get on top for her own reasons. and the guy even disapproves (or not, your choice) of it. or doesn't have anything to do with it. or even hinder her getting a position in the govt.

edited 4th Aug '13 4:29:51 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Well if that's how the trope is defined, technically it's an aversion, considering she didn't receive or need any help from a man to get her to her position.

edited 4th Aug '13 4:39:48 PM by TheMuse

Why would it be necessary to avoid mentioning that they're married? I mean, if the story doesn't have them interacting before that revelation, then sure. If they interact before the reveal, then yeah, the later reveal will feel like a bit of a cheat. If their stories just happen to not intersect before then, then that would probably be acceptable.

But keep in mind that the longer it goes without them getting together, the more it'll stretch disbelief when it finally is revealed. Especially if you don't have them thinking about each other, either.

So my initial question still stands: Why is it important to keep their marriage a secret from the audience?

Well he happens to be a very long distance away, he writes her many times to keep in touch (although I'm planning on him using a 'nickname' to refer to her to not immediately reveal that the two characters are the same person.) Before the relevation, they don't interact 'directly.' (As in face to face) I just thought it might be an interesting twist. Plus if the audience immediately knows that Bob's wife is a goverment official, it definitely would change the first impression he has to the reader.

edited 4th Aug '13 5:10:07 PM by TheMuse

Does it sound a little too needlessly complicated?

your idea can work, but your take is a bit confusing. let me just clarify what you're trying to do here:

• you want to invoke Never a Self-Made Woman
• you want it to be a Subverted Trope, and not an Averted Trope
• you want a sense of surprise/twist in the subversion.
  
  
  If that's the case, i suggest:
• 1. the audience must know bob has a wife in the govt. maybe he has a pet name for her to obscure her identity (as you've said). put Red Herring possible wives.
• 2. the audience must also know Alice (Bob's wife) is married (just an engagement ring will do, Show, Don't Tell). maybe you can put a clue somewhere in the dialogue as to what kind of person her husband is, so put Red Herring husbands. also, she must appear to have got into position thanks to someone else.
• 3. they never interact before the reveal. as Tiamatty said, he's got a point. now would be the time to use the Red Herrings. let them interact with both as if they're their partner (probably). also, have A&B "show" their "long distance" love for each other. how you're supposed to do that, i have no clue.
• 4. during the reveal... well, play it normally. though, don't forget to remind the audience about how alice "didn't need no man" to be a govt official. then it becomes subverted.

edited 5th Aug '13 1:41:52 PM by ShanghaiSlave

I was planning on having them write letters to each other often (the technology of the setting doesn't allow anything more)

• but would a good way of ahowing this be initially hinting towards that she recieved her position due to a marriage with another male official, later to reveal that she's actually married to a pretty average guy?
• And would having her have a close and personal relationship with hypothetiical Red Herring husband be a good way to lead the audience astray? I'm also thinking of having the 'expected' one later be revealed as being EXTREMELY platonic (something like Incompatiable Orrientation due to being gay (and married) or being a heavily implied asexual) because having her have a relationship (that could potentially be acted on) that could be interpreted as kinda flirty would be out of character for her and could hint at Your Cheating Heart, which I wouldn't want to do.

Never a Self-Made Woman doesn't mean that the man necessarily helped her reach her position, but that the women's fathers, boyfriends, etc. are more important than they are. If he's the main character then the trope is being used, but if we're made to believe at first that it's not being used then it sounds like a Double Subversion. Even using the trope straight isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as the woman is more than just the man's wife in the story.

In that case, yeah, it's a double subversion. She gets introduced as a character that appears to be independent from the main plot, only to rejoin with the main action because of her husband's involvemt in the main plot. However, most of her characterization and actions are not related to who she is married to or the fact she is married.

huh? even if she's not part of his team? (as in she's not less important than her husband, as he works somewhere else) the girl seems to be a Deuteragonist or at least, separate/independent from the band at first.

at this point i'm thinking the Never a Self-Made Woman part doesn't get invoked until she joins the band. and she's a normal Iron Lady in position until it happens.


EDIT: Apparently, i missed the 3rd paragraph in the description about "a female character who is already powerful or who has an important role without male aid meets her lover." now this is getting confusing.

edited 8th Aug '13 8:58:37 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to explain this as thoroughly as I can

• Backstory: (you don't find out most of this until later) Bob and Jane are Happily Married and Jane becomes a government official with very little help from her husband (other than support and encouragement) and anyone else.
• The beginning of the story: Bob (who is a main character) is off with the main cast on his own little adventure, keeping in touch with his wife by writing letters. Meanwhile Jane (who is a reoccurring but more minor character) is off being an Iron Lady 'n stuff and her appearances are mainly used to explore different aspects of the setting and foreshadow events (who her husband is and the fact she is married at all really aren't important at this point) Eventually (much later) Jane goes off and joins up with the rest of the main cast. Obviously she doesn't become a super-majorly important part of the group, due to being a late-comer, but she turns out to be quite helpful and continues to have a characterization outside of her relationship with her husband.

eh... I was actually confused on the trope itself, not how you're invoking it.

but your explanation at least gives an idea on your progress with writing it.