Character Building Systems in RPGs - What Do You Like?

Video game RPGs use a wide variety of character building systems. I'd like to have a conversation about what's successful and what doesn't work about each of these systems. This is partly just for fun and partly because I'm working on a side project of my own (not for profit) and am interested in hearing people's thoughts.

There are a couple of core systems that are used throughout RPGs, with various hybrids:

• Class and Level System: The simplest and most common — you earn Experience Points from killing things and completing quests/missions, up to a threshold when you gain a Character Level. Each level grants you some amount of new abilities and stats and/or points to spend on them, as defined by a race/class/archetype that you pick at character creation (or are given by the game).
  • Example: You decide to be an Elf Wizard. You earn 100 experience and reach level 2, automatically gaining the abilities of a level 2 Elf Wizard.

• Job System: In this system you don't have a fixed class, but rather can choose from a variety of classes or jobs to level up, with the option to switch at any time (or certain times); developed characters may have access to a selection of abilities or all of the abilities of their various jobs.
  • Example: You start as a Wizard, but later decide to build your Fighter skills. After a bit of that, you work on your Dancer skills. You gain access to all (or a selection) of these skills in battle.

• Equipment-Based Progression: While there may be some of the other elements, this type of game focuses on gear rather than stats as what defines a character. It includes game types where you "level up" by acquiring Upgrade Artifacts rather than earning experience — a classic example being the Heart Container.
  • Example: Your weapon's stats determine how well you kill things. If you pick up a wand, you can cast spells, although you may also need to pick up magic boosts to be good at it. If you pick up a sword, you can cut things up, although you may have missed on some damage upgrades if you picked up magic upgrades previously. Picking up a more powerful sword lets you kill things faster.

• Point Build System: Rather than gaining fixed abilities on level-up, you earn points that you choose to distribute among your abilities as you see fit. If you have to justify spending points based on what abilities you actually used, then it combines with a Stat Grinding system. Sometimes levels are skipped and you allocate experience directly.
  • Example: You fight a bunch of monsters and earn 100 experience. You spend that experience to increase your Bow, Magic, and Basket Weaving skills.

• Stat Grinding: Rather than abstract "levels", your character develops individual skills and abilities, either through a training mechanism or by direct use. These abilities may add up in some way to determine your overall Character Level or they may remain purely independent of each other.
  • Example: To get good at fighting with a sword, you need to equip a sword and use it. To get good at casting a spell, you have to learn the spell and then practice it. Running increases your Agility, fighting increases your Strength, etc.

My first question is: of these various systems, which is your favorite and why? Do you feel that a Stat Grinding system is more realistic, even though you can end up with counterintuitive incentives like deliberately getting beaten up in order to improve your Stamina? Do you prefer picking a class and then sticking with it forever, progressing on a fixed path? Do you like allocating points or does that break immersion?

As another question, would you put up with a highly complex, math-heavy system that's presented in an obfuscated way that's relatively easy to understand, or do you insist on knowing every little detail so you can optimize your builds and find Game Breakers? Alternatively, do you think that simplicity makes for the best gaming experience; that being able to understand the system is more important than whether it's believable or realistic?

Let's assume that the game handles all the numerical "crunch"; that our systems aren't limited in complexity by the players' math skills. In a tabletop setting, it's impractical to have every action take ten minutes and a calculator to resolve, but a video game doesn't have that problem.

Finally, does the type of game make a difference to which type of systems you prefer? Action style beat-em-ups play very differently from first person games, which play very differently from turn-based games, which play differently from console-style RPGs, which play very differently from MMORPG style games. There are also text-based games like MUDs to consider, which still exist to this day.

edited 18th Jul '13 9:11:35 AM by Fighteer

I would say that the point build system is probably my favorite of all the systems, as it allows me to create a character tailored to my wants and needs. Class and level is just really outdated and isn't very exciting, job systems enable too much flip-flopping between classes instead of sticking to a choice, equipment based progression is more for action RP Gs, and stat grinding is never fun at all.

I prefer more complex systems in general, as it allows for much more experimentation with character builds. I do feel most games do a bad job of explaining how their systems work, however, and that game devs should really focus on introducing the player to the system in a way that doesn't make them feel lost or confused. However, I feel that creating Game-Breaker builds is detrimental to fun gameplay. Instead, all aspects should be balanced so that every build feels like a good experience and not like a boring slog that makes you wish you were playing the supremely overpowered build you had before.

And yeah, the type of game definitely has an impact on the type of system. For instance, you rarely see turn-based RP Gs with equipment based progression. Although action RP Gs honestly could choose from any of those systems and feel fun.

Point Build combined with Stat Grinding. It's my favorite from Quest 64 and is one of the most unique combos I've seen. It allows you to get stronger in a reasonable way without easily overpowering yourself by accident. You'll find that going all into one element makes some enemies harder, and some easier. It for the most part balances out.

hmm i guess my favourite would be either the job system or the stat grinding (of the by doing variety)

i prefer complex systems for giving me more to do and being more interesting- but i would like to understand what to do first, so simple trumps it, just barely. its hard to decide which makes for the best experience though. complex systems can leave me staring at a screen for half an hour trying to figure out what i should do, whereas simply presented systems give me so little to go on that i dont think about it, do what i need to do, and never bother to learn the complexities of the system, which can lead to either a more hollow or more interesting experience based on the type of game.

and finally: yes, definitely. i like all types of systems (well ok, not ALL system, but all of the ones presented.)

they have their places, and in the right place, they're wonderful fun.

edited 18th Jul '13 9:58:42 AM by Tarsen

Well, from my point of view, if I was looking to play something simplistic, I wouldn't go for an RPG anyway, or at least a game that is primarily an RPG.

I definitely appreciate customizability of some sort when it comes to my RPG tastes. Points-based probably works the best overall, being viable for RP Gs ranging from Etrian Odyssey, a game noted for its dungeon crawling to Borderlands, which is barely an RPG at all, and makes heavy use of equipment-based progression too. Both of those games still use classes as a base.

I can't really comment on job systems too much, as it's been ages since I played Final Fantasy III on the DS, and I don't really have much experience with other job-system RP Gs at this point.

What I have been replaying recently, though, is The World Ends With You, which is mainly uses a Equipment-Based Progression system, as all of Nekus attacks, as well as most of the stat boosts come from items, but also has some Stat Grinding (the food mechanic), and set levels for increasing your HP.. You can drop your level at any time to appease the Random Number God and get a better chance of acquiring good pin drops.

As for purer forms of Stat Grinding, I don't really like Oblivion's level system that much, but it's interesting in Romancing Sa Ga 3, as it gives skill acquisition a more organic feel to it, though it's to see why that would annoy certain people.

Given everything that I said, I really don't mind there being fewer stats in more action-based RPG games, because you don't play action games to stare at numbers for half an hour, but turn-based games really need the added complexity and customizability to make them interesting.

edited 18th Jul '13 11:07:43 AM by flygon250

I agree that there's an obvious difference between action RPGs, which need easy to understand systems, and turn-based or tactical RPGs, where you have more time to think and need more complexity to keep the game interesting.

I've been brainstorming for a while about a Stat Grinding system wherein your stats cascade up and down a hierarchy and improving them gives you access to more complex abilities. For example, when you first learn to use a sword, you just have a basic attack. Practicing that gives you points with your Sword skill, which also add into your overall Melee Combat skill. Get enough points in Sword, however, and you could also learn the Disarm skill. Using disarms improves your Disarm skill, your Sword skill, and your Melee Combat skill.

Another example might be that you have a Combat Magic skill, the most basic ability of which is Energy Blast. It's not very efficient but it is simple. Keep training that and you unlock Lightning Bolt.

The idea is for the system to feel organic. You pick which abilities you want to learn and develop, but then they just grow naturally as you use them. I'm wondering how you'd make that system both understandable and proof against excessive min-maxing.

edited 18th Jul '13 11:18:10 AM by Fighteer

I favor Job Systems and Point Build Systems. Appropriately, some of my favorite games ever are the Final Fantasy Tactics series and Fallout New Vegas.

My problem with Stat Grinding systems is that it encourages non-intuitive shit like getting whaled on to gain hitpoints or boring stuff like taping down the attack button for an hour to grind your weapon skill of choice. And then there's the annoying way Skyrim combines this with a normal level system. Want to get to level 80? Well, throw your chosen gameplay style out the window and grind all these other skills too! If I'm a warrior, I don't want to have to cast spells or pick locks to reach my full potential as a warrior.

I would say I like point build best, and job system least. Classes are fine, though, as long as the classes are at least interesting. Note that many of these systems can be mixed and matched: Skyrim has both stat grinding ( the skill ranks ) and point build ( the feats ). Most modern class systems are really class + point build, too.

In broader terms, I like chargen systems where you don't have to be *either* combat/dungeon useful *or* non-combat useful, but have choices to make for both. This is why I liked how Dragon Age split your character development between combat and non-combat skills, and gave you separate points for each.

Skyrim is an interesting case. Given that enemies scale with you, you don't have to level grind at all past a certain point, so a highly specialized character can in many cases be more effective than a generalized one. What makes it counter-intuitive is that levels also grant perks, which you need to improve the skills that you really want.

presumedly, the skyrim uncapper mod is for the purpose of avoiding having to abandon your chosen playstyle to get more perks? butwho knows, that'd require me to play that far.

Hmm...

I think that my preference is for point-based systems, albeit with the caveat that I'm inclined to have some limitations on what's available, whether by virtue of unlocking abilities, class restrictions, etc.; specifically, I fear that it feels a little off to play in one manner in order to unlock skills related to another play-style (such as hitting things so that I can unlock spells).

I'm not a fan of grinding in general, so stat-grinding systems are perhaps amongst my most disliked.

I also rather dislike D&D-style exponential experience systems: my experience thus far is that, once I'm in the higher levels, when I look at my XP counter it feels as though I have a very long way to go before my next level, while the next level tends to appear to come more quickly if I'm not watching for it; in other words, it's a system that works better for me if I'm not paying it attention, which seems to me to be the reverse of what I'd like.

I think that I also prefer to gain experience at significant quest or story points (such as on beats of the plot, or at the end of side-quests, or after beating a boss) rather than for killing enemies.

If I may, the following is a system that I have in mind:

• Abilities are not unlocked via a skill tree, but rather are discovered in the world: they may be taught by an NPC, or found in a dust-covered tome hidden in a ruin, or drawn from a gem taken from an idol's head, etc. Thus abilities are a form of loot, and a reward for exploration.
• Abilities thus found, however, are not immediately available for use: they are bought using ability points.
  • There may be other costs: limited resources, such as money spent or reagents burned, or requirement of having a certain number of skills of a given type, etc.
• There are no experience points, only ability points; most abilities are gained or upgraded at the cost of a single point, while particularly expensive abilities might cost two or three points.
• As mentioned above, points are awarded on significant events or beats; only one or two points are awarded at each, perhaps three at major junctures or at the end of larger side-quests.
• If there are classes, they may determine what sources of abilities are available: fighters might gain abilities from NPC trainers, mages from books, rogues from new traps, etc.

As to complex systems vs. simple ones, hmmm... I don't think that I like very simple systems, that provide few options.

(On which note, I also think that I dislike being required to take a specific undesired ability in order to get a desired one — having to take a "frost dart" spell that I have little intention of using in order to get the "cone of cold" spell that I really want, for example.)

On the other hand, highly complex systems can be a little paralysing, I fear.

I suppose, then, that I want an intuitive system, ideally rich and interesting. I want choices that have some effect on my character's capabilities, without having to sit down and work out my damage per second in this build as compared to my damage per second in that build, etc...

That said, I do think that simulation complexity and internal interaction can be an enjoyable thing — such things as ice spells freezing water and fire spells melting ice in Magika, and the hazards and opportunities that these afford, for example.

As to the type of game, I think that it does indeed make a significant difference. For example, my own preference is for story-heavy RP Gs rather than action-RP Gs, which is likely reflected in the preferences that I've expressed above. For examples, a turn-based game offers more leisure to sit and ponder whether to use that high-power, low hit-percentage ability or a more reliable, lower-power ability; a highly complex levelling system in an action-RPG might take one out of the action for too long; and (to me, at least) hit calculations based such things as to-hit percentages look a little silly in first-person games ("I hit the stupid thing! I saw my sword go right through it!").

edited 18th Jul '13 3:53:27 PM by ArsThaumaturgis

Speaking of Experience Points, one of my pet peeves is the system in which both the amount of experience required to level up increases (exponentially, of course) AND doing the same actions/killing the same enemies has diminishing returns. It's one or the other, dammit. You either jack up the EXP requirement OR (exclusive OR) reduce the rewards towards a fixed experience target.

I think point buy is the clear preference, although stat grinding can work. Class and level or jobs systems tend to be too front loaded in terms of player choice, leading to too much of an Unstable Equilibrium. Equipment based systems run into the problem of either being too random (AGH THE 4000TH MONSTER DID NOT DROP MY PANTS), or too predictable (you know where the Sword of +10 Evil Overlord Slaying is). With stat grinding, the system has to be carefully limited (grinding "active" skills like persuading people or swinging weapons or picking locks in fun and works well, but "passive" skills like running fast and wearing armor are not and do not).

Math-wise, I take the view that math can be either complex or simple, but it needs to be surface visible. Specifically, there needs to be a linear (or otherwise readily understandable) relationship between what numbers you see on-screen and what this means in game mechanics. For example: Raised your Endurance by 10 points? You now get 1 more health with every level up. Drop some skill points into Air Magic? Each point makes your Wizard Eye last one in-game hour longer.

From my experience, too many developers and players tend to associate "complexity" with "you don't know what these numbers really mean without hacking the game's code", and such. If I can't figure out what the numbers mean in my head, then that's extra time spent that I don't want to spend. (I have to periodically remind myself here that I'm better than just about anyone I know when it comes to mental arithmetic, so for broader appeal the standard that appeals to me likely needs to be toned down for everyone else's sake.)

As for game type, it doesn't really matter to me, as long as the game paces it correctly to correspond with the level of mathematical complexity. The best RPGs will do this, while the worst, well...

How about a system whereby you can spend resources to train your skills as well as improve them by actively using them? This way you could get practice in stuff like "wearing armor" without having to get hit a bunch.

For the sake of balance, let's say there are diminishing returns to training, or rather than directly improving a skill, training gives you a boost that converts to real learning as soon as you apply the skill.

I've played a variety of RP Gs, each using one of more of these, but I really don't have a specific preference.

To be honest, when looking at the components of a game's design and deciding if I like it, most of my consideration involves it as a part of a whole.

For instance, while I like Atelier Totori's use of Equipment-Based Progression and Code of Princess' Point Build System, I would actually rather dislike both if they were swapped.

@Balmung: yeah I HATE that too...

I actually started a discussion about this over at Larian forums if you're interested in reading...

My favorite is ffxi's system, which I think is either Job System or stat grinding.

I'm a class system man myself, since class represents a more interesting roleplay experience in a limited choice setting — the designer is allowed to come up with distinct responses available for the insights provided by the Trapeze Artist and Chocolate Chef classes on top of the various generic responses available to all players. This streamlines the process in something manageable for the designer.

I recognise that something like Fallout has skills based gates on conversational options, but I tend to find that this leads players to become jack of all trades (and in a limited skill economy, the masters of none) and can lead to some quite generic experiences across the board.

You could then temper that with a points or skills system for increased specialisation within a broader class spectrum. So you could have something like four or five broader classes with player available differentiation within each, in order to adapt to various play styles. Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines is the kind of thing I'm talking about, or the way that the Origins worked in Dragon Age: Origins.

edited 19th Jul '13 12:32:00 AM by Nicknacks

Which fallouts exactly? Because Pre-FO 3 you rarely had a jack of all trades character. This only tends to happen in Bethesda produced Fallouts.

i dunno, by the end of fallout 2 i'd pretty much got most skills to a reasonably high level, barring certain helpful combat skills.

You're right, my bad, I was mostly thinking of Bethesda.

Difficult to say. I like Class and Level System, generally, but multiclassing as offered by the Job System is one of my greatest RPG joys (see:FFTA). I am not a fan of Equipment-Based Progression or Point Build System, but I'm seeing if Monster Hunter can change my views on the former, and I haven't played any real games with the latter (Which have them? Fallout? Baldur's Gate?). Finally, Stat Grinding I've only seen in Skyrim, which I loved, so I'm positive about it. But all in all, lots of different classes and skills and ways to mix them are where it's at for me.

Class and Level System and Job System are my favorite ones of the ones listed. I just like how unique Class and Level System can make each character, and whenever I tire of that, the Job System has my back, and it can also allow me to mix and match and make characters unique anyways.

Job System for its versatility, mostly. Favourite incarnations are the one in Final Fantasy Tactics and the one in Tactics Ogre (not surprising, considering they're by the same director).

My only experience with Point Build System are Dragon Age and The Elder Scrolls, though both have the Class and Level System built in. The biggest appeal I see in these systems is the roleplaying value of conforming to archetypes, but I can't say I prefer it over the utility of the Job System.

Equipment-Based Progression is rather rare, but my experience with it (Level5) has been mostly positive. The best thing about Dark Cloud / Dark Chronicle is that they made weapon upgrading interesting instead of a pain (hello, Final Fantasy XIII!)

I don't like Stat Grinding. It gets me bored too fast. I had trouble with Disgaea because of it.

edited 21st Jul '13 6:55:12 AM by lu127

I'm pretty sure the Elder Scrolls falls under Stat Grinding with minor Point Build System elements (with more of those in Skyrim), with the Class and Level System being just window dressing for it (and Skyrim dropped it completely).

I might as well point out to everyone that if you aren't sure about what system a game is using, ask before endorsing. I think it's kind of hard to get honest opinions from people when the people themselves don't know what their real opinion is (no offense intended).