What if Gargoyles went in another direction?

For those of you who don't know what i'm talking about, Gargoyles was a Disney cartoon that differed from others because of its level of maturity and seriousness, its dark moments and its complex story arcs.

But one has to ask, what would have happened if the show went in a different direction?

Like, say, what if Demona never was villain and, instead, remained a loyal and loving member of her clan?

Speaking for myself, Gargoyles went in exactly the direction it needed to go.

When Superman from the planet Krypton came to Earth, he was close enough to human to be One Of Us. It's not like he had to prove his worth or earn his welcome. Not so the Gargoyles: though still from Earth, (and yes, Scotland is part of Earth) they are Monsters, hideous freaks that frighten and revile us puny humans. So they are compelled to hide from sight, and earn their place among us.

Demona, of course, takes the necessary tack that if hateful humans want hateful, hurtful monsters, then wish granted. Demona is fighting bigotry with bigotry. Granted, it's a poor choice of tactics, but nonetheless, a common one.

The Gargoyles series was new only in that Disney itself was trying the Darker and Edgier approach. Warner Brothers had the Batman and Superman series, former Disney men Don Bluth and Gary Goldman produced The Secret of NIMH and An American Tail, and Fox had Titan A.E. and Anastasia. Although Disney favors the happy-ending and cutesy-charming tropes, some of the most memorable scenes in the Disney canon are the dramatic ones. I'm not surprised Disney producers tried their hands at a conflicted, painful, noir-ish series like Gargoyles. Good artists will always push the envelope.

edited 29th Jun '13 11:47:18 PM by oneuglybunny

I agree...Gargoyles (the first two seasons) was exactly the right show at the right time. Demona and Xanathos belong among the best villains which ever graced our screen. The beauty with Demona was that you understood how she ended being this way and you couldn't help but feel with her - but that didn't make her less dangerous or her actions less despicable.

It would have deprived us from a great animated villain.

I just thank God that it didn't turn into a comedic Darkwing Duck clone to sell cheap toys, except that so-so video game.

It's interesting that the Gargoyles, by their nature (or at least, how they perceive their nature) almost have to interact with humans. My initial response to the human/Gargoyle conflict was "well, why can't they just leave each other alone?" But the Gargoyles, apparently, have this driving need to protect stuff, so they ally themselves with humans and then protect them. Some humans appreciate it, some resent it.

I'm pretty sure, though, that without Demona being Demona we wouldn't have had a series. You felt for herm but she just couldn't let go of her hate.

Demona's villainy drove Gargoyles forward and thank goodness, it was an awesome show.

I actually think the show would have benefitted from Demona realizing the error of her ways in City of Stone (if anyone knows what I'm talking about). They set it up so it looks like she will, and then she goes right back to her human-hating self, when the whole theme of the arc was about letting go of vengeance. After that, her schtick started getting kind of old. She was just gargoyle Magneto, except even Magneto's more amicable.

We had the awesomeness of David Xanatos to drive the show forward. I think that was enough.

edited 30th Jun '13 11:58:21 PM by kalel94

Perhaps...on the other hand that would have been a little bit too easy. Hunter's Moon worked way better in this regard, because the decision between vengeance and forgiveness was a free one. In City of Stone, she was way too much under the influence of the three sisters (who had their own agenda). And I don't really see her letting to of her hate as long as there are still humans who hunt Gargoyles.

Yeah, if Demona ever made a Heel–Face Turn, that would have been worse for the show than Goliath Chronicles.

Greg's pitch for "Gargoyles 2198" pretty much has Demona still bitter and hateful at humans, just not as active about it and only helping them out of necessity against a bigger foe.

He did also hint in Ask Greg somewhere that if she ever redeemed herself, it would be a slow process and Goliath, Angela, and the others wouldn't be alive to witness it.

The big problem with a Demona redemption arc is that while she appears to on some level be aware of the fact that she's the real monster and most of her suffering is directly on indirectly her own fault, she's pretty much the queen of lying to herself. By this point it's probably a subconscious self-defense mechanism (since if she actually let herself get flooded by all that pent-up guilt and self-loathing she'd probably totally BSOD for who knows how long), but it also is the most substantial roadblock towards actually trying to change her behavior, since she won't let herself consciously acknowledge that she needs to change. That would also be why her actual planned redemption arc would take so long, would happen only in the face of a greater threat, and would have her apparently be in the role of Token Evil Teammate for a while first.

I think Gargoyles did go in a good direction. Goliath Chronicles has its flaws, but for me, the best of it was at the end of this clip:

"DREAM OF ME, GOLIATH! DREAM OF MEEEE!" I can never get enough of that one line.

But hey, that scene is in the comics continuation as well! Without the bottomless stupidity and mischaracterization that followed!

I love how utterly unperturbed Goliath is in that last scene. And, hey, if my enemy could be defeated by stepping to the side, I'd react the same way.

Let me clarify what I actually meant. What if some other Gargoyles was responsible for the plight of the Wyvern clan and Demona was just one of the Gargoyles who got caught up in it? Basically, i'm asking what if someone else filled the role Demona had (like say, the never seen gargoyle, Hippolyta) and she was one of Gargoyles trying to pull herself back up from this betrayal.

Also, if Demona never was an enemy of the clan, how would things have gone for the whole Goliath/Elisa thing

Then we wouldn't have Demona.

I love the direction it took; but I kind of wish that we saw less of Elisa. I always thought that the show was never quite as good when she was around as when she wasn't around.

Answering Srebak: Demona as the Sixth Ranger makes her The Chick, and prey to the Smurfette Principle. It would make the Gargoyle clan vulnerable to Distressed Damsel plots.

No. Demona as antagonist and renegade element is ideal. Xanatos can't be the sole antagonist, good though he is. Otherwise, he'd be overused, and weakened as a character: Villain Decay. Look what happened to Doctor Doom: too many times deployed meant too many defeats for such a grandiose character. Marvel had to fall back on the lame Actually a Doombot ploy to untarnish him.

Perhaps a large part of Demona's charm is that she could go the Heel–Face Turn route, but hasn't yet. She's a necessary foil to the Gargoyles: a glimpse of what they could become if they let old hatreds rule them. As for Detective Eliza's encounter with the Gargoyles: unchanged. Goliath especially is aware that the Clan is in a whole new world, and that mindless antagonism doesn't fare well. It is well that Eliza is left to function as a necessary liaison between the Gargoyles and human law enforcement.

One of the Gargoyles most shining aspects is that the writers knew when and where to furnish conflict and antagonism, and when to restrain it.

edited 1st Jul '13 8:45:02 PM by oneuglybunny

I think the best thing to look at in comparisons with Demona and the possibility of a Heel–Face Turn actually lies in a show that I often feel is the next generation's answer to Gargoyles (a kids show that was incredibly good and complex as far as kids shows went) and that's Avatarthe Last Airbender. If you look at Demona as a character she's probably most similar to Zuko and that I think may be part of the reason some people might desire a turn for her. The problem there is the difference in the two characters is one of choice. Zuko had to CHOOSE to become good and he didn't get it right immediately. However, he was fighting against the desire of his environment to make him something other than what he was and that choice allowed him to make the turn.

Demona on the other hand CHOSE to go the the dark side. She actively and repeatedly chose to keep doing whatever it took to punish humans and honestly after doing so for that many years a turn just wouldn't feel right.

I disagree...Demona is not like Zuko at all. For starters, Zuko tries to follow the rules of his folk, of his family, and finally has to make a decision against his family because he realizes that the rule of his father means destruction for everyone. Demona on the other hand has caused the destruction of her own clan with her own decisions, and she is not above risking the life of other Gargoyles when she thinks that the result is worth it. She is an adult, who at one point decides to take the path of revenge of hatred (if anything, she is like Zuko's father), while Zuko is a teenager who has to make a decision about his future and finally decides against destruction. If Zuko had been born in a family like Goliath's Clan, there would have never been any conflict, because he had followed Goliath's ideas of honour without question. If Demona had been born in Zuko's family, she would have been like Azula. (Plus, Avatar feels a little bit more juvenile compared to The Gargoyles...both enjoyable, but totally different).

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:02:44 AM by swanpride

Demona never had an Uncle Iroh. How does that affect things?

She might have, but she cursed him and now he hates her stinking guts.

It's clear since early on in ATLA that Zuko is essentially a good person who has been pushed into doing bad things. That's absolutely not what Demona is: She wants to think she's doing what's right, but she's really just willfully deluding herself in order to avoid facing her own guilt. What's more, the flashbacks and time-travel episodes show that while Demona may not always have been a genocidal maniac, she was never completely a good guy - we saw in "Vows" that she was the Archmage's apprentice and in "Long Way to Morning" she spends most of the episode trying to convince Goliath to overthrow Hudson as the clan leader. If the story could somehow be altered so that she was still part of the clan in the present day material, she's be the Token Evil Teammate, not the Damsel in Distress.

What? No Elisa? Is it because she's the main human protagonist and has to be a surrogate?(compared to Bluestone the conspiracy theorist and Robbins)

From what I've seen of Gargoyles, I would've liked them to have a bit of a larger rogues gallery. They have a decent set of villains that get developed, but I think it's alright to have some breathers.

Perhaps it goes against the mythical nature of the show, but I did get a bit weary of the arc where we were introduced to all those myths(like that stone protector, the irish hound, anansi, etc.). Yeah it was a cool arc, but it dragged on a bit. I know Weisman had the intention of incorporating as many myths as possible, but the stories behind the gargoyles did occasionally stray from the societal implications and the personal conflicts of the characters and more "Big Mythical Weisman universe". But maybe it was just that one arc.