Social Media, Bigotry, and Employment

@Ship: "I have {X} friends" is a bad excuse because even if your friends have you given you free rain to say whatever you want that doesn't mean it's appropriate to say that kinda thing in the workplace, school, public etc...

The important thing to remember about Paula Deen is that she wasn't not renewed because she's a racist.

She wasn't renewed because people are phobic of lawsuits and she's in the middle of an ugly one.

There's also the phobia about bad publicity that TV has. Not just about this, in general.

Former President Jimmy Carter Opens Up To CNN About Paula Deen: 'My heart goes out to her but ... there’s no condoning the use of a word,'

edited 28th Jun '13 7:14:00 PM by DeviantBraeburn

I think the main issue isn't that she admitted to dropping the N-bomb. I think it's more because she admitted it, in addition to other— and I hate using this word— problematic things she said and did. It's that PLUS wanting an all-black wait-staff to play the part of slaves at her brother's plantation-themed wedding, PLUS her admitting to using the word in racial jokes, PLUS the (alleged) sexual harassment and discrimination suit.

Now, at the end of the day, I'm not mad about it. She's an old, white, southern woman. I expect her to be at least a little racist. But, I'm not in charge of a multi-million dollar company that has a huge interest in not looking racist.

My personal take on the matter, and this applies to the consequences of bigotry in general, is that I have absolutely zero sympathy for whatever may happen to you as a consequence of a person being a bigot, openly displaying bias and other such faux paus on social media. You brought it on yourself. It's your coffin; rot in it.

I don't care if they lose their jobs over it. I don't care if they end up begging on the street. They should have exercised better self-control. If you are so lacking in self-control that you cannot make it through daily life without making an ass of yourself, you should probably seek professional help.

At this point, every person with access to the internet should be fully aware that anything unleashed on it, even for but a second, may become eternal and haunt them forever. So it is stupid to put anything on the internet that you wouldn't want to be associated with you for eternity. It's a simple thing: don't do things which might have consequences unless you are prepared to suffer the consequences.

Some people have claimed that when people go on racist/misogynistic/homophobic diatribes that its simply venting. I disagree. Anger is a bit like alcohol. It doesn't make people act not like themselves, it just makes careless. If you didn't think it when calm, you won't say it when angry.

Shout into an empty room, talk to your best friend (make sure they won't take offense), write a letter and burn it. There are consequence free ways of doing it. So if you pick the one way which does indeed have consequences, then it is your own stupidity to blame if it bites you in the ass. Action and consequence. Such is the price of free will. I refuse to shelter adults form thier own actions.

I can honestly say I have never once broken into a rant and made general statements about jews/gays/blacks/whites/asians/arabs/christians/ when angry or frustrated. When I'm angry at someone, I'm angry at them, not the group they belong to.

Now as for Paula Deen in particular- I don't particularly care about her dropping an N-Bomb. Really the more insulting thing was her wanting to dress black people up plantation style to serve at a wedding. She even made a quip about how we used to tap dance for her. I mean really? What I find disconcerting is the number of people making excuses for her.

Oh and one last thing : Having friends/family/lovers of a particular group doesn't eliminate the chance of bigotry. Many a slave owners had a nanny who was like family to children or a servant who functioned as a confidant. That did not mean they weren't racist.

See, a racist doesn't think "This is a good person who is black, therefore, not all black people are beneath me."

No.

A racist thinks, "This is a good person who is black. Therefore, they don't really count as black people."

Pretty much yeah.

You said what I want to say, only better.

Also, I'd like to add that people react to what people say, all the time. Do we blame the people for starting bank runs when rumors of a collapse of the said bank are spreading? Do we blame people for selling and buying their shares because of what people said? If you are going to post something where everyone can see and read, whose fault is it when it comes back to bite you? All this type of "freedom of speech" and "right to vent" mentioned in this thread (yes, I agree that we should have freedom of speech, just not in the absolute irresponsible form mentioned by people in this thread) is all just bull, as they all based on the idea that people should not react to what you say.

edited 29th Jun '13 1:39:21 AM by IraTheSquire

But there's a line between a logical reaction and an illogical reaction, we don't blame people for having logical reactions, but I'd say we should blame people for having illogical reactions. Now it's a hard line to define, I don't deny that, but it's one that exists.

I agree with most of your post but I'm not on board with holding someone's mistakes against them forever, if they're willing to apologise and admit it was a mistake than should we really still hold it against them? It just seems a bit cruel to me, part of being human is making mistakes, we shouldn't hold it against someone if they aren't able to hide their imperfectness. I'm taking about more than just the Internet hear, but in a general sense of should we hold people's mistakes against them forever. I've got a friend who did something stupid when she was 12, she is still paying for it and likely will for the rest of her life, is that fair? Is it right?

People make mistakes, if they are willing to admit that they made a mistake and apologise to those involved than it strikes me as unendingly arrogant for us to hold it against them forever.

edited 29th Jun '13 2:16:34 AM by Silasw

Is it fair? Well, that depends on what you take fair to mean. It is fair in the sense that every one is held to the same logically consistent standard? Yes. Is it right? That will depend on how charitable you are regarding the nature of humanity.

I will be honest: I am not a big fan of apologies. I find them cheap and insincere. I find they are mostly platitudes, which do nothing for the aggrieved party. I find most, not all but most, to be done more out of fear of reprisal than out of sincere regret. They seem to be more about curtailing the consequences of the action than anything else.

Like the public apologies that famous people issue after showing showing the racist/homophobe underneath. It's not cause they're sorry. They just want to stop the media shitstorm.

I prefer acts of contrition to words of apology. If you've messed up, don't just say you're sorry. Support it with action, even if the action is as simple as never repeating the offense again and in time forgiveness may be earned. But being forgiven is not a right, it is not something anyone is entitled to and I will not begrudge a person who refuses to forgive. It's their prerogative and it might serve to teach the apologizer a valuable lesson. Children are more easily forgiven because they legitimately might not know better. An adult has no such excuse.

I also think the nature of the offense should be taken into account. There are some things which you should not be forgiven for because not doing them in the first place is either common sense or basic universal morality.

It's why I do not forgive bigots. This is the 21st century. History is one long blood and tear filled testament to why bigotry is bad. Children are taught this lesson starting in Kindergarten, and if they come from even a quarter decent parents, they start earlier than that.

Ignorance is no excuse, at least in the developed world. The lesson is repeated on television, in movies and in books. It borders on omnipresence. Internet access is abundant. If you are an adult, you can no longer blame your background. It is a personal failing after maturity to not teach yourself better.

But then you've removed all incentive for bigots to stop being bigots. If they're going to be hated for having been a bigot than why should they stop? If repenting wont gain them anything then they have no incentive to not carry on as they are, if I'm going to be hated whether I change or not I might as well not change.

Now I agree that many apologies are done not out of genuine regret but out of fear of consequences, but people do make genuine apologies, they do genuinely regret past actions. You're right about actions speaking louder than words, but you've still stated that you will write someone off forever if they make a particular mistake, I think that's incredibly arrogant and foolish.

I'm on-board with there being some things for which you should never be forgiven, for which there should be a permanent stain on your character, but saying something stupid and insulting a few times is not one of them, at least not for me. I reserve that position for much higher crimes, rapists, murderers, abusers and similar, not for old ladies who parrot the culture they were bought up in.

You talk about how ignorance is no excuses in the information age, but we're talking about something that happened 30 years ago, well before the invention of the internet. Yes even then it probably violated common sense, but are you honestly going to say you've never violated common sense? God knows I have.

I guess this is where my faith shows though, because this is probably the most core thing for my religious beliefs, and the only part of my morality that comes from my faith. The idea that no one is beyond saving, that with enough effort and care we can all be redeemed, that no mistake is so big as to seal us away forever, that given enough time and effort everything can be made good.

edited 29th Jun '13 3:50:45 AM by Silasw

...and if that happens, what is there to stop them Jumping Off the Slippery Slope?

Well, firstly if the only reason you would change is in exchange for an award, then your change would be insincere. If someone is truly renouncing bigotry, then they are doing because they realize it wrong, not for social approval. Anything else will not suffice because if public opinion ever swings back in the other direction, the bigot will simply return to the previous state affairs. Also, it is not my duty to play and carrot and stick with anyone.

People should be good people even when it doesn't benefit them. If you are only good when it is convenient, then you are not good. Simple as that.

Secondly, not forgiving someone is not the same as hating them. It doesn't even mean you're angry at them.

Thirdly, bigotry is not an accident. It requires active thought. It requires repeat offenses. Active hatred, often of groups that number in the millions. Hating millions of people for the crime of existing is pretty inexcusable in my book. A little old women who drops n-bombs on occasion isn't a bigot (though she is rather distasteful).

I wasn't referring directly to Paula Deen, except the section of my first post when I mentioned her by name which is directly when I said her using the n-word wasn't all that big of a deal. And being the product of your culture is the weakest excuse for anything. It completely negates self-responsibility.

Have I ever violated common sense or basic morality? Of course I have, and if someone I've harmed through those actions chose not to forgive me, then I will accept their judgement, gladly. If they never forgive, then I have no to blame but myself. It will hurt me but it is pain I have earned.

Can anything be redeemed? I strongly believe that to be the case, given the time and energy. What I doubt is whether or not certain things are worth the investment.

I also disagree with the idea that others should be responsible for someone else's redemption.

As I said above, if they are the kind of person who is only good when it benefits them, then they are the kind of person who will jump off the slippery slope the second that benefits them. In such a case, society should always make sure that the stick of not being good is always more intimidating than the carrot of being a bad person. But that onus should not be placed on any one individual.

edited 29th Jun '13 4:30:05 AM by IConfuseMe

I find the notion that white Southerners are naturally inclined towards racism a tad offensive. Plenty of people down here have the sense not to use racial slurs in public. Homophobic slurs on the other hand...

Key words "In public"

What are you trying to say?

I'm saying, speaking as someone who lives in the rural midwest, which is like a microcosm of the south, just because you have the sense to not call a black man derogatory names in public doesnt mean you arent thinking it really hard.

edited 29th Jun '13 6:44:09 AM by midgetsnowman

As long as it stays in your skull (or in a closed room amoungst like-minded people), it's fine. <shrugs> There's no need to go all 24/7 thought police, you know. <_<

So do you believe white Southerners are naturally inclined towards racism? As a white Southerer who is not racist, I take strong offense. It's no different than any other stereotype. I tend to put up with it because I know from experience it has a basis in reality, but sometimes I get fucking tired of it.

edited 29th Jun '13 7:10:42 AM by Morgikit

Spoken like a true southern racist, check your privilege

Joey: Check yours and quit being obnoxious. Or you trying to be funny and not quite making it?

edited 29th Jun '13 7:23:27 AM by TuefelHundenIV

@Morgikit: I jest but you're right the all southerners are racist stereotype is a unfair an hurtful. People who push it tend to be the sort who are just trying to make themselves look open-minded and progressive by comparison and don't really care about equal rights.

PS was originally replying to your pre edited comments.

edited 29th Jun '13 7:37:15 AM by joeyjojo

And are quite possibly unknowingly Racist — how's that Mexican Nanny or that cheap-but-good Polish Plumber?^note  I'm taking a shot at members of the Bourgeois Bohemian set — the type that are "anti-Racist" but praise cheap immigrant Plumbers and foreign Nannies

But if somebody's a bigot to the point where you find it uncomfortable, how is it illogical to get them out of your life as much as possible? And if they are part of your working organisation, the best way to do that would be to get them out of your organisation. That's a logical reaction.

I think you mean a "reasonable" reaction.

Right, the key to "innocent until proven guilty" is that the very nature of arresting and arraigning you creates a presumption of guilt, so the procedural system in the trial needs to be weighed in the defendant's favor, and thus why it's different in civil cases where there isn't a stigma immediately attached to one side of the aisle before any context whatsoever is introduced.

And I feel that the line on social media interference from an employer is that the employer should not be going out of their way to find dirt on you. If a transgression of yours is immediate or obvious, such that the general public is likely to find out about it and hurt the company's image, then you can take action. You shouldn't be forcing all employees to become facebook friends with HR, or (in what should be an illegal action) forcing them to hand over their facebook password.

They should trust you enough to assume you aren't going to do anything to jeopardize your job, while assuming that you are adult enough to understand that dumb things you say in public could very well end up jeopardizing your job.