Touch The Sky
I liked Dumbo but jeez the crows. They aren't even bad dudes and are pretty likable in term of role but it's definitely one of those things I liked more as a kid than an adult. I have similar feelings with the siamese cats in Lady And The Tramp and the racist chinese cat in Aristrocats. I can still enjoy those movies but it really hammers in just how people were so blatant with this stuff back then.
Of course none of those reach Fantasia or Song of the South levels.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I meant stuff like, well, The Little Mermaid or Beauty And The Beast, stuff that was really popular, everybody remembers it, everybody loves it, the really big names. Hunchback and Tarzan... neither of those really fit that profile. I don't really see Disney doing them up in live-action any time soon.
(And now Netflix is nearly obsolete? Oh, the irony!)
edited 22nd Jul '17 12:15:13 PM by Aldo930
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Netflix, nearly obsolete? That's poppycock. They're still going strong right now with their original programming, only problem they have is with licensing films and whatnot.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
I never thought so, and hadn't even heard of it beforehand, but the fact that with streaming services you are at the mercy of the companies telling you what you can watch and able to take it away from you whenever they like is why I stick to DV Ds - and even VHS tapes.
With a DVD, when you buy it, you own it, and no one can take it away from you. You can watch what you want to watch, when you want to.
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
Honestly, the whole matter with the racism in the early Disney movies is way overstated. I kind of get it with the Siamese Cats in light of the yellow scare thing, because while most animals in the movie are presenting some sort of stereotype - Ie the beaver the working class stereotype, the little dog in the pound the "lazy Mexican" stereotype, Jock the "thrifty Scott" stereotype, Trusty the "English Lord" stereotype aso - they are dipping deep into "Asian foreigners are scary" thing. I don't get it at all concerning the Siamese Cat in Aristocats because the whole point of the scene is that all the members of the band are somehow "ethnic" and that one shouldn't judge them based on them being basically street cats. And the crows - look, even if you recognize them as "black people" (which the majority of the people out there most like don't, take away the way they talk due to a different dubbing and they are just a bunch of crows), they might be the most positive portrayal of blacks you would find on screen during that time period. If you really want to see something to feel uncomfortable about, watch Coal Black. That will put the crows in perspective.
Dumbo was actually my favourite Disney movie when I was a child and I always adored the crows. Still do. They are cool in every sense of the word.
Concerning Netflix: I have it, but more as something supplementary, and I would most likely cancel it if I couldn't share the cost. It is great to watch TV shows, because buying those on DVD cost a small fortune. Not so great for movies. If there is something I either really like or have reason to suspect that it won't be available at one point, I buy it on Blue Ray.
edited 22nd Jul '17 12:56:22 PM by Swanpride
@Ulitmatum Dumbo II was actually planned early on in the DTV run, but got into Development Hell and ultimately never came to be. I suppose it's a compliment that they decided not to just release a Dumbo sequel in any crappy state.
edited 22nd Jul '17 2:23:01 PM by Psi001
Lots of racially insensitive things are "positive." Heck, Uncle Remus is "positive." Stereotypical characters being positive and helpful is where the Magical Negro trope comes from.
But that doesn't make them less of what they are. Neither does the fact that things exist that are worse.
edited 22nd Jul '17 2:55:09 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Just because they're depicted as good people doesn't make them anymore racially stereotypical and offensive. They don't sound like stereotypes in other countries, fine, they still do here in the US and it reflects US history where this kind of shit happened.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Oh, the crows in Dumbo are definitely stereotypes. The thing is (and this is usually the explanation you'll get from the people who made films at the time) is that a lot of the humor from the era was based on stereotypes, of all kinds. Hillbillies were stereotypes. Jock and Trusty are stereotypes, in Lady and the Tramp. Go all the way up to The Rescuers and all the swamp-dwelling critters are stereotypes. The difference is, the racial stereotypes are now considered offensive, while the others are not.
Meh, people need to be more accepting of older beliefs in older material, and less PC.
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
I'm not accepting of racist stereotypes.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Look, I'm a black person. People really need to stop wasting energy getting mad over blackface minstrel gags & stereotypes in old cartoons and such. Yes, it's bad, but that's the way things were back then. Nothing, especially not censorship, will change that.
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
I don't see anybody in here advocating outright censorship.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
Speaking of which...
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
I'm with Lindsay Ellis and feel that they should put a forward on Song of the South like they did the War Cartoons.
edited 22nd Jul '17 5:45:24 PM by BigMadDraco
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Oh definitely. There's no point in outright hiding it but you need to remind people "Hey, so, you can still enjoy some of this but remember that there's some kinda racist shit in here".
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Definitely. Maybe something that gives a little context to it, too. Talk a little about Reconstruction.
But in any case, I'm with Whoopi. Disney should've rereleased Song Of The South in America years ago. Specifically because it's an uncomfortable example of things we used to accept, people need to see it. It does America no good hiding from what it used to be.
Also, the actual Br'er Rabbit folktales are authentically adapted and expertly animated, so there's that too.
In fact, I advocate the opposite. Accepting the pervasive racial stereotypes that existed during that time and their place our history, and moving on having learned something, rather than getting defensive and putting one's head in the sand whenever someone brings it up.
edited 22nd Jul '17 6:23:15 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
What gets me is trying to say "Oh, well the stereotypes weren't that bad" or something. Like, yeah, I accept that this shit happened even though I'm still angry about it, but it's pointless to hide that it happened. But trying to whitewash it by saying "Oh, Disney wasn't that bad with these stereotypes" is still showing ignorance to the topic.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
I think they ought to have done it back when they had the Disney Treasures DV Ds. They were limited edition, they were priced well out of the range of anyone but collectors - there'd still be some controversy, but at least it would have happened.
Either that, or perhaps the cut-down Brer Rabbit tales, which I believe aired on the Disney Channel in that form years ago.
edited 22nd Jul '17 6:30:24 PM by Aldo930
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
I actually owned some old Brer Rabbit storybooks when I was a child. I was a dumb kid and scribbled all over them; I wish I still had them since it feels like they'd be an important cultural item given Song of the South's current state as an Old Shame.
They've rereleased clips from the film before, Disney Sing Along Songs: Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah while initially made to promote the final theatrical rerelease was reissued in 1990, 1994, and 2001.
I wish I still had said sing along tape as apparently the 1994 re-issue is incredibly rare and given my age that's likely the one I had.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
What's "incredibly rare" for a Disney tape made in the 90s? Worth $20 on eBay, maybe?
edited 22nd Jul '17 6:51:56 PM by Aldo930
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
I think Br'er Bear is actually one of my favorite minor Disney villains. I like the "antagonist sidekick who seems like 'the stupid one,' but whose simple approach is way more competent than the 'smart one's' Complexity Addiction" idea. It's a complete subject change, but Milo Murphys Law uses it nowadays and I love it.
edited 22nd Jul '17 6:53:45 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Thing is, I think Disney knows that nothing good will actually come from releasing Song of the South. If they release it, they'll get praise from academic circles and hardcore animation buffs. But the majority of people will only ever hear about it via Click Bait articles going on about how racist Walt Disney was. Given that Song of the South isn't considered to be all that great a movie anyway, it's not really any wonder that Disney doesn't feel like releasing it.
I'm just glad they never got around to making a sequel to that Dumbo film
New theme music also a box