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Duplicate Trope: Ryu And Ken
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Duplicate Trope: Ryu And Ken get usage counts

 26 Another Duck, Tue, 30th Apr '13 3:34:27 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
No, but that start out in this trope, and evolves into two distinct characters, who aren't this trope.
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 27 Spark 9, Tue, 30th Apr '13 4:20:33 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
@Jovian: about half the examples currently on the page are misuse. It is easy to see from those examples (and the current description) that the duo of Ken and Ryu is famous for half a dozen things other than this trope. Such as Friendly Rivals, Blue Oni Red Oni, Palette Swap, and so forth.

This is precisely why we tend to deprecate character-named tropes. Wherever there is a trope named "The Jim" which is about trait X of character Jim, then we should ask ourselves (1) are there other famous characters named Jim (e.g. Christie Time was renamed because it turns out there are multiple famous people named Christie) and (2) is Jim famous for other things than trait X? (e.g. what is going on right here).

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 28 Another Duck, Tue, 30th Apr '13 5:32:33 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I find most examples to be correct, but the descriptions of the examples are often highlighting the wrong things, or describing things irrelevant to the trope. Mainly being too hung up on comparing them to the actual Ryo and Ken, but also a lot about how they evolve to become different, or how they look like the trope but aren't really. Which is probably just as bad as straight misuse in terms of renaming qualifications.
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I personally like Ryu and Ken s Trope Namers because if you don't know much about the plot and dynamics of Street Fighter but you have a loose graps of the characters, the salient thing about Ryu and Ken is that they play similarly and have many moves in common. That said you have to limit the context to fighting games, so real life section should be cut.

The Trope here is just in a world or game with several unique Special moves, Signature Tecniques, or Playstyles there are two characters or more characters that have most of those things in common, and may or may not be balanced differently.

If you were to rename it to get rid of Ryu and Ken, I'd call it Character Clones based off the Smash Bros term
 
 30 Spark 9, Sun, 5th May '13 12:07:34 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Interesting fact: did you know that Science Ninja Team also has two major characters called Ryu and Ken, who are two parts of a Five-Man Band? And so does Ninja Gaiden (a father and son pair), and Fist of the North Star (a mentor and trainee pair). So not only do both individual names fail the One Mario Limit (big time; they're both very common names), but the pair of names fails the One Mario Limit.

We cannot expect every reader know that these names refer to Street Fighter. Even to people vaguely familiar with Street Fighter, I'd expect them to either know that they're rivals or opposites, rather than knowing that they're both Shoto Clones.

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 31 shimaspawn, Mon, 6th May '13 2:40:33 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Knowing very little about Street Fighter other than having seen the movie, the idea that the characters used the same move set would have never occurred to me.
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okaay, then rename to Character Clones or Moveset Clone and fix the description. I think most examples are using it right just skimming through the page, so i don't know why this trope is at issue all of a sudden. But if you want to change the name go ahead.
 
 33 Native Jovian, Tue, 7th May '13 1:23:54 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
I wouldn't say that the trope is entirely about moveset; it's more like one character is a mechanical tweak of the other, which may include differences in stats, moveset, Elemental Powers, etc.
 34 Another Duck, Tue, 7th May '13 10:55:39 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
They're either exactly the same, or similar. Which may include smaller tweaks. The point is that you're going to be familiar with one if you've played the other, and that it's one way or another a shortcut in the production.
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 35 Spark 9, Wed, 8th May '13 4:25:02 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
(withdrawn) See my next post.

edited 8th May '13 8:01:21 AM by Spark9

Special trousers. Very heroic.
 36 Larkmarn, Wed, 8th May '13 7:33:46 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Yeah, but I'm worried that Character Clones would lead to confusion with Cloning Blues, Expies, Captain Ersatz, etc... I lean towards Moveset Clones.

 37 Another Duck, Wed, 8th May '13 7:48:04 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
Moveset Clone is a narrower name, but in this case, I think it might help with the misuse.
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 38 Spark 9, Wed, 8th May '13 8:00:28 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
The point of the trope is that they play the same, not necessarily look the same, yes? So Mario and Luigi from Super Mario World are not an example, since they explicitly have different jump physics.

...In that case, I agree that Moveset Clone is a better name.
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 39 Larkmarn, Wed, 8th May '13 8:07:19 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
We had all these discussions on the name that we haven't really done much to resolve clarifying the definition.

I suggested that it be made video-game only to pretty much be about characters who yes, don't necessarily look similar but have similar movesets.

Now, Mario and Luigi in the later games are... tough to say, since their jump physics are different, but they still have the same moves usually, just with a different jump. But... they're the only playable characters in the game. So what's the point of comparison, there? Is that tweak in jump enough to make them not fit the trope?

 40 Native Jovian, Wed, 8th May '13 8:44:22 AM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
My point is that the trope is more than just "characters with the same moveset", though. Another Duck is exactly right in saying that the trope is about characters that are largely similar — so that a playing used to using one would be able to play the other without much adjustment — but not identical. Whether the difference is stats, or elemental affinity, or moveset, or what, it's all the same trope. It's not at all limited to moveset, which is why I don't like the idea of naming it "moveset clone".
Dragon Writer
So Mario and Luigi from Super Mario World are not an example, since they explicitly have different jump physics.
No, that varies by game. In the SNES Super Mario World, also in New Super Mario Bros., Mario and Luigi do have totally the same physics as each other.
 42 Willbyr, Wed, 8th May '13 9:33:03 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] And in Super Mario Bros. 3, IIRC.

edited 8th May '13 9:33:29 AM by Willbyr

 43 m8e, Wed, 8th May '13 9:52:24 AM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
This might be a stupid question, but doesn't this trope require that the games also have playable characters that don't share the same abilities/moveset/stats?

Mario and Luigi sharing the same moveset doesn't count when they are the only two playable characters. (but they do count if it also possible to play with Toad, Peach or Yoshi.)
Carpe by all means diem, but not all diem are worth carpe.
You might have to miss half of tomorrow to catch the whole today.
 44 Larkmarn, Wed, 8th May '13 9:54:56 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
My thoughts exactly. Seems like something we'd need to pound out.

Dragon Writer
^^ In NSMB there are two Toads for players 3 and 4, but they share the same jump physics as Mario/Luigi (Nintendo has defended that, because it puts all players on a level playing field).
 46 Spark 9, Wed, 8th May '13 10:58:34 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up][up][up] Yes, if all the characters act alike then that's not this trope.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 47 Larkmarn, Wed, 8th May '13 11:12:54 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Alright, so the trope is two characters who essentially play as "tweaks" of each other, with subtle differences to them such as minor changes to moves, elements, power, but still noticeably play similarly. My definition is... admittedly terrible, but the basic spirit of the trope seems pretty clear to most of us.

What does this mean for non-video game examples? Because when Spark first brought it up, that's where the real mess was apparent to me. I mean... I really have no idea what the criteria are there.

 48 Spark 9, Wed, 8th May '13 11:14:40 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] It's a gameplay trope, so it only applies to video games (and, I suppose, board games and card games, where applicable). All other examples belong on Bash Brothers, Friendly Rivals, and so forth instead.
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 49 Larkmarn, Wed, 8th May '13 11:20:01 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
... seriously, LA and New York. I mean... jesus.

 50 StarSword, Wed, 8th May '13 11:42:53 AM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
[up]Flat "What.".

Alternative Titles: Ryu And Ken
12th Jun '13 6:01:02 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Total posts: 126
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