Superman General

I was more focusing on the Watchtower itself, specifically the orbital satellite version. To compare, the Hall of Justice may be a bit cheesy but it's literally a lot more down to earth, while Grant Morrison's moonbase is far enough to avoid the unfortunate implications regarding surveillance in this day and age, especially now with Cyborg pretty much being a one-man NSA.

Meanwhile, Superman smashing up city blocks during a rumble is the last thing I'd criticize, since he's (usually) not the one to pick the fight, and controlling the field is about the most difficult thing to do from that point on. If anything, I thought all the complaints regarding collateral damage and what was clearly a necessary use of force in MOS were blowing things out of proportion. I mean, it was an alien invasion played for drama, and with none of the usual safeties, what else was to expect? One might not agree that gritty realism itself is the best way to craft a superhero story, but beyond that, bitching about the superhero himself not doing enough or being too violent is just willful ignorance of what the story is really going for.

Will Jon get any training from Batman or Wonder Woman? Though it might be dangerous for Batman to train Jon until the kid can control himself well.

clark is probably going to do it himself. he knows the most about how kryptonian powers work.

Well, Jon eventually will have a team up book with Damian, so he'll learn how to not accidentally hurt anyone.

So, as someone who's relatively recently learned to truly love and appreciate the Man of Steel, I've been trying to start reading more of his solo comics, but I'm not really sure to start. I don't want to just read specific trades and call it good, I can tell you that. I want to pick a place and keep reading from there. The trouble is that everytime I've tried to pick somewhere on my own, it hasn't really worked out.

To start with, the Silver Age has some fantastic concepts and ideas, but the storytelling around those ideas is like a sitcom, (a bad sitcom,) and while it can be pretty amusing at times, it's not really what I'm looking for. On the flipside, Byrne's Superman has much better storytelling, but the actual stories and ideas themselves are much less high-concept and much more mundane. It's solid stuff, but it isn't great persay, and it really just seems like Byrne threw the baby out with the bathwater in his efforts to reinvent the mythos.

What I'd really like to see is something more along the lines of All Star Superman or Supreme; something that takes the Silver Age ideas and concepts, but uses modern storytelling. (And by 'modern', I just mean good storytelling in general; anywhere from 60's Marvel to nowadays.) I loved Supreme and ASS, (not the most dignified acronym, is it?) and I just wish there was a whole era of Superman comics like it. That's what I'd really like to get into and start reading if possible, but I also understand if there isn't anything else really like either of those either. Do you think maybe the Bronze Age is more up my alley? Or is it not really worth talking about?

edited 22nd Jun '16 3:04:16 PM by kkhohoho

Bronze Age Superman was kinda a holding pattern from the Silver; most of the changes were cosmetic.

I would actually recommend digging a bit into Silver Age Legion, especially Jim Shooter's stuff from the 60s. It has that same kind of over the top Superman ridiculousness, but Shooter really upped the storytelling quality when he started out.

But yeah...it's distressing how DC has learned just about nothing in the wake of All Star Superman.

edited 22nd Jun '16 3:48:41 PM by TheEvilDrBolty

I've already read the Jim Shooter Legion, which is kickarse stuff. (Most Legion stuff is pretty kickarse.) But yeah, that's a shame. I still really like Superman as a character, but it would be awesome if more of his stories were in the All-Star mode. That should be a blueprint for how to write Superman stories in general, seriously.

Some of the Bronze Age stuff is pretty good actually. That's when Mongul came in, when Brainiac got upgraded into a serious menace, when Luthor got his warsuit, etc.

Yeah, I've actually heard about that era of Superman comics. That's why I asked about the Bronze Age actually. I wasn't too sure about it, but it might be what I'm looking for. Where do you think would be a good place to start? The first appearance of Mongol maybe?

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:17:12 PM by kkhohoho

Superman in the 90's (before Death of Superman) was actually really good. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many trades from that era (don't know why) except for Time and Time Again and Dark Knight Over Metropolis.

There was a lot of good stuff in the Bronze Age, too, before Byrne, particularly the stuff by Elliot S. Maggin.

I think Mongul first appeared in a team up story with Superman and the Starman at the time; I don't know that he fought Superman again (though I may be wrong) until Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything" (which is also really, really good).

I loved All Star Superman myself. I really wish they'd bring Leo Quintum (without ruining him) into continuity.

edited 22nd Jun '16 7:10:31 PM by Robbery

DC just re-released Panic in the Sky. There's also an old Exile trade.

I completely forgot about Maggin. I haven't read his stuff, but yeah, it's supposed to be really darn good. I guess that settles it then; it's off to the Bronze Age for me. Thanks everyone, really.

Mongul faced Superman a couple of times before "For the Man Who Has Everything."

Check out Superman # 400 if you get the chance. You'd have to track down the actual issue, but it's a collection of short pieces written by Maggin and drawn by artists who (at the time) had never drawn Superman before, Stories are drawn by Frank Miller, Marshall Rogers, Wendy Pini, and Klaus Jansen, to name a few. The final story is written and drawn by Jim Steranko. It has a number of pinups, also by artists who never drew Superman (one's even by Will Eisner).

Cary Bates is another pretty good writer from this period. He and Maggin wrote most of the stuff in the main Superman title (can't remember who did Action at the time...I remember Action frequently having two or three stories in it at that point) leading up to Moore's "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" and then into Byrne's reboot.

CA: The Case For Queer Superboy.

Interesting. Doubt they'll do it, though.

For some reason, I can see Damien as being gay (or bi) before I can see Jon as such; and thus far anyhow he's seemed too comfortable in himself to be trans.

Do you know how utterly tragic on every level a trans Kryptonian would be? They can't have the surgery done.

Unless Superman got the robots in the Fortress to do it, with, like red sun lasers or some such.

It strikes me that a trans comic book character would have to keep reminding the audience that they ARE a trans character...otherwise, how would new readers know? I recall watching an anime once about this magic swordsman kid who had a magic robed girl as his attendant, and he fought this other magic school girl and her evil female teacher. At the end of the thing, in the production commentary, you find out that all the female characters are supposed to be men in drag (not trans, as far as I know). Given that they were all drawn to look like slim females, and the fact was never brought up in-story, how is the audience supposed to get it?

edited 24th Jun '16 7:10:11 AM by Robbery

No, they wouldn't. Marvel cleverly has something called a "recap" page so it doesn't need to recap things that have already happened in dialogue. DC doesn't have it (although they should), but they generally have continuing storylines without needing to go back and keep explaining what happened in past issues.

Generally, you can have a character mention they are trans in the first issue and it may not come up again for another dozen issues. I mean, that's what happened with Sera in Angela: Queen of Hel - how often were you reminded of the fact that she used to be a male Angel?

So I've started reading the Bronze Age era from around 1972 or so, and yeah, this is what I've been looking for. It's got all of the fantastical ideas and concepts from the Silver Age — strange aliens that can create constructs at will, giant killer white bloodcells, freaking space cowboys — but with actual decent storytelling to go with it, and it's just a blast. Is it perfect? Heck no; there isn't that big of a focus on Character Development, the writing can be a bit stilted or wooden at times, and you can tell that the writers sometimes just pull things out of their arses, but darn if it isn't just fun.

It's also interesting to see just how Superman's changed compared to back then and nowadays, or at least post-Byrne. With Byrne, Superman considers himself more or less fully human in all the ways that matter, acknowledging his Kryptionian birthright without letting it dominate him, and he's a fairly extroverted and open kind of guy. On top of that, Clark Kent — or at least the Clark Kent that the Kents and Lana see — is the 'real' self, while Superman is the alter ego, though then again, the Clark that works at the Daily Planet could be considered an alter ego in its' own right as well.

Pre Crisis, it's a different story. Here, Superman does more than just acknowledge his birthright; he considers himself a true-blue Kryptonian, which causes him to feel more alone and isolated than Post Crisis Supes. The loss of the Kents doesn't help, and he's just so powerful here that there aren't many in his weight-class he can relate to either. He's in general a more reserved and introverted character, and whereas Clark is the 'real' self under Byrne, here, Supes is the dominant identity. In spite of all of that though, he was still raised right and still considers Earth his home, and is still the Superman we all know and love, if a bit different than how most people may think of him nowadays.

There is one thing I've been wondering though; why does Pre-Crisis Supes think of himself as a Kryptonian? Sure, he was born on Krypton, but he was still raised on Earth; it's not like Supergirl or Powergirl where they spent their entire childhoods on Krypton or anything like that. I've heard a few reasons behind it, such as him having spent enough years on Krypton to remember it before getting shoved into the rocket, or Krypton's history getting implanted into his noggin during the trip to Earth, but I'm not really sure either way, and even then, you'd think the planet he spent most of his life on would mean more to him than Krypton does. That's something I actually liked about Byrne's Superman; that Supes does think of himself as 'human' first and foremost, more than he does a Kryptonian, because it only makes sense. But again, I'd like to know just what the whole thing behind Pre Crisis Supes considering himself a Kryptonian is, because it's still a bit baffling to me.

edited 24th Jun '16 12:27:33 PM by kkhohoho

I've never heard a rationale given by any of the writers of that era as to why, precisely, Superman should feel such an affinity for his birth planet rather than the one he was raised on. Pre-Crisis Superman was about two or three when he arrived on Earth, and has actual memories of a bit of his life on Krypton and his parents (total and instant recall, and a photographic memory). Perhaps it's because this Superman always knew he was from Krypton, always knew who and what he was, even though he was raised on Earth by the Kents. The post-Crisis version actually spent some time not knowing he was adopted, and not knowing why he was different, so he developed...I dunno, feelings of humanity. Strange, singular humanity, but humanity. In the Golden Age, I don't think they had it that Superman officially knew he was from Krypton until Kryptonite was introduced. But then, you're not going to find much of the human/ kryptonian dichotomy explored in the Golden Age.

So this is gonna sound odd, but has anyone ever gotten the idea that Clark is more of a loner in the comics? We don't see him interact with Jimmy or Cat outside of work and he tends to have a conflicted relationship with Kara in almost every incarnation.

Well, Jimmy pretty much lost his role as Superman's Pal after the Crisis. Nominately, they keep trying to pretend he still is (at least, they used to; I think they've pretty much desisted by now) but let's not kid ourselves, Post Crisis hasn't been kind to Jimmy.

How is it that Batman gets the "I work alone" status when Superman works alone more often than Batman does?

Because Superman is nice, basically.

But yeah, there's a lot to work with in Superman's self isolation. It's an aspect of his character that naturally derives from most of his trappings and setting.