Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:
- This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
- Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
- There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.
edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
It seems that much like Islamic cultures of old, Malaysia is the pinnacle of medieval society.
One just might
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That's not part of hudud.
But then, most people in your part of the world think that having the guy who is an ally to the party that tried to implement hudud in the 90s and then is trying to implement it again now, had done nothing to stop it both times, tried to start an 'Islamic' revolution in the the 80s and still have a personal fundie army as the prime minister as an improvement.
Actually, the hudud simply cannot be implemented without changes in the Federal Constitution. It has happened before and this time it will be no different.
edited 20th Mar '15 10:14:09 AM by Blurring
If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?
Resident Bollywood Nerd
Changing the topic from Islam for a minute...
Beef has been banned in two Indian states, Maharashtra and Haryana, and all beef-related offences - slaughter of cows, bulls and bullocks as well as possession and sale - would give you five years in jail (for perspective, possession and sale of heroin incarcerates you for about the same amount of time). Both states have BJP governments, the BJP being a Hindu-nationalist right-wing political party which also holds the central government under PM Narendra Modi.
You know, there's a reason why, if you see Indian atheists, they tend to conform to the 'angry atheist' stereotype - because so many of them have had to deal with such bullshit when it comes to their freedoms - India being relatively secular only means that we have to pussyfoot around everyone's religion for fear of 'offending' it.
noisivelet naht nuf erom era srorrim
It's weird to think about how may religions wouldn't allow the bacon cheeseburger I'm currently digesting.
Although the beef itself was apparently halal, which struck me as ironic.
edited 20th Mar '15 3:01:56 PM by Elfive
Ah, the world's most blasphemous foodstuff. And technically, because the beef was halal that actually means it's banned by yet another religion. Sikhs aren't supposed to eat halal or kosher meat because that means that it's technically been consecrated to another religion (or so I'm told).
A nice butterfly
If that was true wthen I guess a Catholic priest could just touch their water and bless it and they would all die? ._.
Or you know. Brad. "Touched the bread. You cant eat it now! It is holy!"
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Sneering Imperialist
The "angry atheist" type appears to be more prevalent among atheists in America than in Europe, as well, presumably for similar reasons.
With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
I think if I had to live in some parts of America I'd be pretty angry myself.
A nice butterfly
The myth of creation in Islamic tradition is not so different to the myth of creation in jewish/christian/catolic traditions, right?
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
If I understand Islam correctly (and I probably shouldn't claim to) they're the exact same.
United Earth
Well, there's a few subtle differences, but then again, the same is true for the original. Genesis outright contradicts itself in, like, the first couple pages.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A nice butterfly
What are these differences?
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Well there's the stuff with the Djinn. No Djinn in the bible.
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
For all intents and purposes (some differences aside) the history of Islam and Judaism are identical...right up until Ishmael gets kicked out of Abraham's family. He's supposed to be the ancestor of the Arabic peoples while Isaac (his half brother) is the ancestor of the Hebrews.
Not Three Laws compliant.
United Earth
I wish Judeo-Christians would stop calling Ismahel "illegitimate". It's not like Abraham had a hidden affair on the side; his wife was sterile, he needed an heir, and it was all consensual and public. Then later God came with His wonderful sense of humour and told 90-year-old Sarah that she'd be expecting, much to her initial hilarity. But then He kept looking at them with a completely straight face, and they realized... "My God, You Are Serious!!"
Let me rummage around Wikipedia for the relevant bits...
- Creation:
This narrative is further developed in many verses in the Qur'an. According to the Qur'an, the skies and the earth were joined together as one "unit of creation", after which they were "cloven asunder".[21] After the parting of both, they simultaneously came into their present shape after going through a phase when they were smoke-like.[22]
Some parts of the Qur'an state that the process of creation took 6 days.[23] While other parts claim that the process took 8 days: 2 days to create the Earth,[24] 4 days to create the mountains, to bless the Earth and to measure its sustenance,[25] and then 2 more days to create the heavens and the stars.[26]
However, the consensus among Muslim scholars is that the process of creation took 6 days, not 8; They claim that the 4 days for creating the mountains, blessing the Earth and measuring its sustenance implicitly include the 2 days for creating the Earth. In light of modern scientific knowledge about the origins of the earth and the universe, many modern interpretations particularly by apologists, prefer to view the word "day" (Arabic: يوم) as used in the Qur'an to mean an arbitrary period of time or epoch; They justify this view by explaining that the usage of the word "day" to mean an arbitrary period of time is not uncommon.[citation needed]
The Qur'an states that God created the world and the cosmos, made all the creatures that walk, swim, crawl, and fly on the face of the earth from water.[21] He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. He poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corn, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass.
God molded clay, earth, sand and water into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in Paradise. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded all the angels to bow down before Adam. All of them bowed but Iblis (Azazel) refused to obey.
God placed the couple[clarification needed] in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of a forbidden tree. But Iblis (the Serpent) tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When God knew that Adam and Eve had disobeyed him, he cast them out of Paradise and sent them to the earth.
Islam breaks somewhat with Judaism and Christianity in explaining why Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. In the actual Hebrew account in Genesis, a snake tempts them to eat the fruit. Extra-biblical Christian mythology identifies the snake with Satan, but the actual text of the Biblical story does not explicitly make this identification. In contrast, the Qur'an states explicitly that Shaitan (Satan) tempted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.[27] In contrast with Judeo-Christian traditions, which sees Satan as a rebelling angel, Islamic tradition identifies Shaitan with a being called Iblis, who is a jinni, a spirit of fire. In Islamic tradition, angels consist of light and never disobey God since they do not have free will.[28] Thus, it is said that angels are incapable of sin. In contrast, God created jinn with free will and they may choose to obey Him or not, similar to the case of the human being. He told them to bow before Adam, but Iblis refused, claiming that his fiery nature was superior to Adam's flesh, which consisted of clay.[29] God cast Iblis out of his paradise, and Iblis vowed to tempt Adam and Eve's generations to corruption and to disobey God.
Aaaand... okay, actually I found one article that compiles all of the storylines and contrasts continuity choices, Canon Immigrant characters, and so on. Biblical and Quranic narratives from both Torah and New Testament
. Enjoy!
edited 24th Mar '15 4:42:18 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hagar was not in a position to give consent as that she was property.
And Abraham was a complete asshole to her and his son even by their standards at the time.
But then again, the bible rewards assholes and punishes their children like with Jacob, David and Solomon.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
"n the second of the Bible's creation stories, the woman is created from the rib of the man. In the Qur'an, Eve is not mentioned by name, but it states that all mankind were created from one soul (Adam)"
Strangely that sounds a lot like Eva. Its probably just a coincidence
United Earth
I would like to state once again that I would dearly love to see an Arab dub of Neon Genesis Evangelion. Maybe we'll get a Western-based Arab dubbing agency, perhaps in the UK or Germany?
edited 24th Mar '15 1:51:22 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Eva was influenced by Kabbalah and other forms of Abrahamic mysticism, so that makes sense.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Have any theologists come up with possible explanations for why several deities (mostly goddesses) of Classical and pre-Classical mythologies (not necessarily Greco-Roman ones; I'm using "Classical" as a time-period determinant) are charged with both sexuality and war/violence/death/any combination of the three? (Examples: Frejya, Ishtar/Astarte/Inanna, older versions of Aphroditenote )
edited 25th Mar '15 1:52:38 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Because sex and death were very, very common.
When you're average life expectancy is about 20-30 years, you mate like bunnies and deal with the inevitable. Children could barely make it to adulthood in the 1900s. You can imagine the struggle of making it to say 15 back then, especially when 30 was the time's 60.
And you want religious studies scholars.
Theologians specialize in the practices and history of a faith from within that faith, like an Imam or Priest. Religious Studies is the term for those who study it like any other academic specialty.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
United Earth
What happens when you combine the two?
edited 25th Mar '15 4:33:45 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Death by Snu Snu.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
NOT THE BEES
Theologians tend to not be big on Snu Snu.
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Given the Islamic Morality Police
tendency to go full retarded in Malaysia
enforcing those religious laws is pretty much guaranteed.
Inter arma enim silent leges