Pathfinder

@2423 I can give some sympathy, though, because the best mythological fit for "snake on the bottom, human above the waist" is actually a naga, but they already used that for "snake with a human head" (which, to be fair, was also a form mythological nagas could take, in addition to "humanoid, but two snake tails below the waist that function like legs," which I don't know if we've seen in-game).

@2424 Wow. Someone has their history in reverse.

Bahamut, Tiamat, and lamia (another example of A Kind of One) originally appeared in Dungeons & Dragons books in the 70's (all were first used by those names in 1977's Monster Manual, although Bahamut and Tiamat appeared unnamed in 1975's Greyhawk). Final Fantasy wasn't published until 1987 in Japan and 1990 outside of it.

Gaming historians have long noted that the original Final Fantasy just lifted much of the basic mechanics (including Vancian Magic and how several monsters worked) from D&D, to the extent that Squaresoft (as they were then known) actually ran into legal trouble regarding bringing the game out in the United States. The three that gave them the most trouble were the Beholder boss, the drow, the mind flayers, and the fact that the Fiend of Fire was a marilith. The former had its entire sprite replaced (it became the Evil Eye, which was more like a smoke-spewing cyclopean skull), and the other three were renamed (the drow were alternately Fighters and Mages, the mind flayers became the infamous Sorcerers, and the marilith became Kary). As a side note, it has been noted several times that experience in how D&D works greatly helps when trying to play Final Fantasy 1, moreso than any other game in the series.

As a side note, claiming that Final Fantasy was responsible for the D&D version of lamia is even less credible, because while D&D had lamia since 1977, they didn't appear at all in the Final Fantasy series until Final Fantasy II, which came out at the tail end of 1988 (but not released outside of Japan until 2003), and the first American appearance of lamia in a Final Fantasy game was Final Fantasy IV in 1991.

While later editions did have various elements that were influenced by later Final Fantasy games, it's worth noting that D&D has had more influence on Final Fantasy than the other way around.

Umm, dude, you read reverse of what I said .-. I said FF ripped off monsters straight from D&D.

You read wrong sentence previous from that where I noted that other JRP Gs rip off designs from Final Fantasy(and then continued by pointing that it on otherhand ripped it off from D&D)

Seriously, read what I actually say before writing wall of text about it, sure I'm hard to understand but that wasn't that weird sentence among all things I have written

edited 19th Oct '16 6:55:30 AM by SpookyMask

In regards to the mythological woman named Lamia: She's been depicted as half-woman, half-snake for several centuries (iirc, since at least the Renaissance or earlier.

@SpookyMask: Well, not all Lamiae in D&D are that way. Lamia Matriarchs are Snake People. And yes: Japanese creators tend to not do research when naming things based on mythologies or religion (ohai there Shin Megami Tensei). Seriously, look at the Sadly Mythtaken and just see how many things that are on there are made by Japanese creators.

Though to be honest: The Tiamat thing is excusable because the Babylonian Myth where she appears barely described what she looked like. I mean hell, she's also appeared as a giant bat demon.

Grabbed the PDF for Curse of the Crimson Throne. One pretty noticeable change: no stat block for Achaekek anymore. I guess it's because they retconned him to full deity.

Other things of note:

• The properties of the Crown of Fangs are different from Artifacts and Legends (Ego is much higher and it gives additional abilities)
• The "Guided" weapon property (which allowed you to use your WIS modifier for attack and damage rolls) is gone, as is another infamous magic item (the Celestial Plate Mail)
• Kazavon is fully started!
• More stuff for the party to fight the Red Mantis.
• Working more recent mechanics into the adventure path, including a major Vigilante NPC as well as the lycanthropy corruption from Horror Adventures.
• Hints at a future product involving Runelord Sorshen

edited 19th Oct '16 8:38:35 PM by Pannic

Yeah they did that ever since they switched out of 3.5, character page for him isn't just updated yet

So in other words, Achaekek is basically a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" now. Because iirc, Achaekek is a thing that's supposed to stop mortals from ascending to godhood (and has failed that job about five times now), and without stats that just means he's always going to stop players from doing so.

Well, I guess it depends on what the stat block was replaced with. I mean, they could replace a stat block with a list of ways that the PCs can circumvent or overcome Achaekek without resorting to combat. I could see ways to rewrite it such that the same equivalent challenge is there, even if Achaekek isn't specifically said challenge anymore.

That said, yes, it does require a bit of a rewrite of the setpiece. That said, if they've done rewrites to include things from Ultimate Intrigue and Horror Adventures, it strikes me as reasonable to assume that they've done so.

The stat block wasn't replaced with anything. He just doesn't show up in the campaign. I'm guessing he didn't originally, and was just there in the bestiary (this was where they first introduced the Red Mantis Assassins, after all).

That's how it is with some bestiary entries, for example, each installment of Strange Aeons features a new Great Old One in the bestiary, but I sincerely doubt they'll actually be encountered during the AP.

edited 20th Oct '16 12:28:13 PM by Pannic

Note that Achaekek's role could also have been changed since I don't remember him being some sort of "Mortal Ascension Beefgate"

(But yeah, he didn't show up in Crimson Throne, just his statblock in bonus articles )

edited 21st Oct '16 12:46:58 AM by SpookyMask

Yeah. It's important to remember that in the early days, Adventure Path was the only Pathfinder book. Front half contains an adventure, back half contains other goodies.

Also, I'm currently musing on how to make a sheet for Galt leader Korran Goss. I'm envisioning sort of a cross between Kilgrave and President Snow. But it doesn't look like I can use Dominate Person to make someone jump out a window.

Eh you can, it just requires charisma check iirc

I would rule that you can't, the wording of the spell is "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out".

edited 22nd Oct '16 5:31:58 AM by Rosvo1

Well, you can get someone to jump out the window with dominate person, but it requires tricking the victim. As noted, obviously self-destructive (which is more broad than "suicidal" - an act that would cause hit point damage that the victim could live through would count as "self-destructive) orders aren't carried out... so you have to figure out how to disguise the fact that jumping out the window would be self-destructive. Illusions and bluff would probably help there.

I think I figured out how to... encourage the players in my planned PF campaign not to play megalomaniacal necromancers and murderous serial killers (and to embrace Po W and Akashic Mysteries): I'm playing with the fear and sanity rules. Any undead-user becomes a bleeding sanity wound for a party if that happens.

Considering that the sanity rules in Horror Adventures needed massive tinkering, I'm curious as to what you have in mind. Also, kind of curious as to whether you'll also pull in some of the corruption rules... it's not unreasonable to say that mucking around with negative energy to create undead would eventually turn you into an undead monstrosity as well.

I might be running a game soon. No houserules, but a lot of reskinning of things, mostly races and casters. The players will be part of an upstanding heroes-for-hire guild or a more amoral mercenary guild at Lv 1. That is, they take job requests sent in from across the land for money and eventually I'l l build a plot.

Any suggestions? Specifically, some missions they could take.

So full disclosure I've never DM'ed before, so don't take my work as writ by any means, but I think it largely depends on what your players are playing as, and like. Like, optimally you want to have quests and situations where everyone can get involved. So if you've got a Face player without much combat ability, give him opportunities to suss out information, but maybe not so much a quest where one player can talk your way through the entire thing without ever getting into combat.

So like, a dungeon lead by a villain who needs therapy.

I think the sanity rules has flaws, but that's inherent in their design, and at least they work. I'll put in corruptions as-needed; I think they are also flawed, but I love that they give me a way to reign in characters if I need to.

@2441 I like "guarding a trading caravan" as an early-level adventure. You have a lot of flexibility as to what attacks it (Goblins? Bandits? Zombies?), what kind of obstacles are hit, and you can adjust on the fly (Oh, they took care of the bandits easily? Guess it's time to increase the size of the upcoming orc raiding party). You also can fit in several locales and set up important NPCs later (the guild itself, fellow mercenaries, the guild's customers, maybe a bandit troupe). Low-key, but gives you plenty of places to set up future plot hooks.

@2443 Well, yeah, they work in that they're internally consistent and slot in with existing mechanics. That said, it's been noted several times how, as written, they completely hose martial characters. I think the sanity rules are an awful kludge that weren't playtested well, and I wouldn't use them without a reworking - at the very least, some way for class abilities and feats to modify sanity (I'd probably say that, at the bare minimum, anything that could improve your save against a fear effect, which would include Iron Will, gives you extra sanity equal to the bonus vs. fear effects).

I know the corruption mechanics aren't perfect (honestly, I think they cause a slide into total corruption way too fast, even on the slow track), but I think that just needs fewer tweaks to work, as opposed to the massive overhaul I'd give sanity.

The only rule I'd institute is that Bravery applies to sanity saves. Otherwise, players could, I dunno... play Path of War classes.

The problem with that? The Sanity rules, as written, heavily favor the mental classes. You know, the guys who normally go insane in those kinds of stories, whereas the martial classes are shafted, despite being the type of people who don't go nuts.

Personally, I feel that Sanity Rules should not exist in a game like Pathfinder. Sanity Rules work in something like Call of Cthulhu because it's a mundane world, with eldritch horrors. A character in Pathfinder deals with things that would cause a Lovecraft character to go nuts with.

To quote the YMMV page for Pathfinder (entry was deleted for some reason): Most of the horror for Lovecraft's characters comes from the sheer shock in seeing such alien creatures and experiences, which so drastically contrast their understanding of reality. However, the inhabitants of Golarion — or, really, any D&D-ish setting — have a far, far broader view of reality than 1920s-ish humans do. When your neighbor is a youthful girl who has outlived two generations of your family, your other neighbor is able to twist reality to his whims with some mumbo-jumbo and funny gestures, and your king could well be massive, nigh-immortal, immensely powerful dragon, something like a Mi-go doesn't stand out that much. The world is so full of strange and twisted lifeforms that creatures of the Mythos simply aren't any stranger than anything anyone's already seen. Add to that the fact that killing such creatures is bog-standard, and Mythosian monsters lose yet more of their power to scare the denizens of Golarian. By the standards of a basic Lovecraft hero, a Golarion adventure engages in Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? every time he cuts down a raging orc warrior or a drow or, heck, even a goblin.

@God_of_Awesome: I'd also recommend what 32 said. Keep it low-key at first, but allow for you to set-up for plot-hooks later on.

edited 28th Oct '16 10:20:48 AM by BlackSunNocturne

Alright, just mentally replace every time you see sanity with stress, that should help. You're not talking me out of this, I already like what the sanity system does for my own reasons.

Hey, if you want to add a system that arguably knocks down every martial class half of a tier by its implementation, that's your prerogative. I just thought you said that you were going to experiment with it, rather than just use it as-is and watch everyone that isn't a caster go koo-koo bananas.

That said, it is leading me to think more on how I'd actually overhaul the sanity system rather than just complain about it. Of the class abilities that could give extra Sanity... Bravery is pretty obvious. I think Still Mind, Aura of Courage, and Slippery Mind also should give something (though not the blanket immunity that Aura of Courage gives to fear effects... maybe just +4 sanity to match the bonus it gives allies). There probably should be effects that can give boosts to resist sanity loss - like bardic performances (maybe just inspire courage) or rage (particularly if superstitious is one of your rage powers) - while they're active. That could work. Feats also would factor in by this plan.

An alternate way I could see handling it is if your sanity equaled a preset value (let's say 30 for a starting point), with your will save modifier being added to that. Yeah, several martial classes still lag, but a few things. One, the lag isn't as bad. Two, everyone's sanity is improving as you level, as opposed to before when only casting classes would see it improve (because martial characters are putting level-up stat gains in the physical stats). Three, you could combine it with the above to further equalize things.

I'm not actually running a horror game. I like to think of it as "The world is full of awful things, but there are fonts of hope everywhere". Then again, I try to put horror stuff in my games normally. My last campaign had the players after a child serial killer for heaven's sake, spurred on by the corpses of his victims spawning tooth fairies.

Hell, I'm mostly using it because I'm curious about it, and to stop players from playing evil, necromancing assholes. It kinda hurts when your own minions cause people to go insane. And, as I said, I'm encouraging players to play Path of War classes, all of which usually have at least a 14 in their initiating stat (which is a mental score in literally every single class and archetype save one). I'll make adjudications based on what people play, but those are pretty fair. Also, sanity is a mind-affecting effect, so there are ways to buff up a save against it, but those ways don't seem bad.

So, here's a neat addition to Curse of the Crimson Throne.

You see, in the original Pathfinder Chronicles: Guide to Korvosa, one of the features of the town was that it was the site of a bunch of skirmishes between imps and pseudodragons. However, with the rules as written, a fight between an imp and a pseudodragon is gonna result in the pseudodragon losing. So in the new release of Curse of the Crimson Throne, they introduce the House Drake, which is an evolution of the pseudodragon that's able to fight them. Their bites and stings count as silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and they have some spell-like abilities.