Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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edited 4th Jun '16 10:54:43 AM by AngelusNox

Honestly, I feel like you could make a poster like that work, but it just looks wrong here because it's made to look so... casual. A better poster would make the situation really dark and dramatic, as if to say "Holy crap! How is our hero going to overcome this?!" Instead, it's framed very indifferently, and without really emphasising the drama.

I think the villain is supposed to show contempt for Mistyque here, maybe amausement at how much stronger he is. Which makes sense because as far as I know, she doesn't have any combat related powers and acts more as a scret agent.

It would have probably been better to have a series of posters with the different heroes defeated, showing how much of a threat the villain is and characterising the heroes via how they react. Have one of the women look back defiantly or already standing up again and it wouldn't look much like you portray all women as weak.

The intention behind the poster seems to have been to play on "Men are Strong, Women are Weak" to show that the guy is the villain. Using violence against a woman is still seen as worse than using it against a man, even if both are combatant and of equal physical prowess. Utilizing preconceived notions and stereotypes isn't excatly new in advertisement, those things generally don't have the space to examine any related issues in depth.

I guess wether this advertisement is sexist or merely using society's sexism to be more effective is a matter of opinion.

The part about them being mutants is missing the point of these movies so completely that I can't decide if it's hilarious or depressing.

There is a much simpler explanation as to why Apocalypse is doing a Neck Lift on Mystique rather than any other character in the film.

She's the protagonist.

So violence against women is normalised now? So that's so much more common than violence against men that it needs to be specified as against women?

On the other hand, I'd say showing that kind of violence with as little context as it has is a bit tasteless regardless of genders.

"Violence against women" actually means "violence against women who are unable to defend themselves", the idea that women might themselves carry out violence or fight back isn't mentioned, nor does the poster imply that Mystique is fighting back.

And that implies that women, by default, are unable to defend themselves, while men are.

I'm straight up not seeing any particular weird intentions with the poster here. It's arguably an original idea for a poster here, maybe poorly executed. And also I don't think I've seen much examples of a poster like this... period. I believe there's an iconic moment during Infinity Gauntlet where Thanos chokes out the Hulk, but this is overall a strange choice in general.

The whole idea of the poster is that Apocalypse is this casual force of destruction, who can render all foes helpless and vulnerable by pretty much existing. It doesn't really depict Apocalypse as a bad, inhumane guy, so much as an unstoppable force. And the pose that Mystique takes shows that vulnerability and weakness, not retaliating but struggling to survive against such a strong force of nature.

The real question being asked here is if Mystique was chosen because there's the idea that a woman could better showcase that vulnerability by playing on biases of "women are more vulnerable", or if she was simply chosen because Mystique is the most recognizable X-Man in the film that they could use for the poster. If it were, say, Jubilee I'd say it'd be a lot more questionable, but there's a real argument to have with Mystique.

I suppose always try to err on the side of caution, so it might be for the best that the poster was removed, but it isn't really a clear cut case here.

Yeah, here apocalises is a cross between force of nature and earth conqueror, and show the villian being the villian, is just unfortune implication with her being a woman.

Granted this left other implication as "Let villian beat every guy but be gentle with lady" kind of thing

That chokehold is an exact depiction of something towards the end of the film. In full context it's retaliation for her attacking him, and she's shown being a capable fighter on multiple previous occasions as well.

Are there posters of any movie where a male hero is shown in a similar predicament?

If not, it could also stem from misandry. Because showing men as "weak" makes people not respect them anymore.

The closest point of comparison I can think of is this poster for "The Dark Knight Rises".◊ But that is, of course, rather fundamentally different in that while violence against the male hero is implied, Batman doesn't actually appear on the poster. The drama of the situation is much more pronounced than in the X-Men poster.

I don't think misogyny was involved in the creation of that X-Men poster, just indifference. It's a lousy poster, is what I'm saying — the framing of the situation fails to evoke drama or heroism, and thus just seems like a casual depiction of a big blue man strangling a small blue woman.

In other words, bad art design makes things much more offensive than they need to be.

In terms of "male hero in a vulnerable position poster", Iron Man 3 had a poster with Stark going in free-fall, screaming, heavily damaged◊, Age of Ultron had a poster of its heroes being swarmed by a Ultron horde◊. Civil War had Iron Man about to overwhelm Cap◊,

If we're going to tv shows, Daredevil had a poster with the Blind Vigilante beaten up and chained to a chimney◊.

I can't see the first image but of them I'd say that only the Daredevil one is close- in terms of showing the hero not just losing but like being humiliatingly defeated and unable to fight back.

Edit- But yeah, when I first saw that Mystique poster, it definitely struck me in somewhat poor taste- I mean obviously the idea is to show Apocalypse as powerful, but I think what most stands out is the idea of Mystique as a Distressed Damsel. And in a way I can kind of see the accusation of it being sexualized violence- hard to describe but it feels like the villainous counterpart to the Leg Cling or Over-the-Shoulder Carry- the idea of showing the female character depicted as completely helpless.

edited 5th Jun '16 8:26:11 AM by Hodor2

The second and third posters there don't strike me as showing the heroes as that vulnerable. They very much look like they're still in the fight.

Yeah apart from the Iron Man 3 poster the heroes are still fighting in all of thouse, while the Iron Man 3 one has Tony falling, it being help helpless while being strangled.

I don't get the sexualised part. It's just conjecture or projection.

If that Daredevil poster would've been gender reversed, there would've been complaining.

Genuine question: May this be a reversal of Mystique's "habit" of choking people?◊

Though my problem with that is less "why is the poster depicting him choking her?" and more "why don't we get more heroes in distress?"

edited 5th Jun '16 10:02:23 AM by DrunkenNordmann

Maybe, my questions remains why isn't she fighting back?

I feel like it has to do something with the angle. The one used on the poster does make her look a tad more passive, while the one in the image I linked looked more the part of "impotent struggle".

That being said, I'm not really sure of how many examples of a poster like this that I've seen... period. It's an unusual concept for a poster.

It does make me more uncomfortable than if he had been strangling one of the male characters, which is probably a sign of my own prejudices. I don't think it looks (intentionally) damsel-in-distress-y or sexualized though. It's more of a brutal "oh shit this isn't good" kind of thing.

Yeah that is a type of poster that would not happen if it was with a dude. For one, a dude would be angry and have a fighting face on, even if he was helpless.