Needs Help: Sliding Scale Of Troll Cruelty

Okay, this one didn't go through YKTTW and had some really bad formatting until a minute ago. I tried to fix that up and I think I did an okay job. However, I only did some cosmetic stuff and since this didn't go through YKTTW the categories are kinda ill defined. I like the idea behind the page, however, because it solves a recurring problem we had with the Troll article without requiring us to change the focus of a popular page that actually has another well entrenched meaning.

So while the page looks more presentable, it's still kinda iffy and I don't know what else to do with it.

I added the foldercontrol code to the page...the media types should probably be changed to AC text to make them like other such pages.

I'm only familiar with a few of the examples, but I question calling the actions of Tzeentch in Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 "trolling".

I don't know anything about 40K but I do know that the categories are pretty ill defined and some characters just don't fit where they are.

This was originally in YKTTW (here) but was obviously prematurely started.

Also, a nice demo on "how to recognize a Harry Potter fan".

Where do characters go that do it for pragmatic reasons? For instance, Kyubey does it only to manipulate people into acting for his benefit. He doesn't really have emotions as such, so doing it just to be cruel or for amusement doesn't factor into it.

Also, someone like Xelloss. He's clearly Evil, but the trolling is both for a pragmatic reason (he feeds on negative emotions), which in itself can be considered cruel, and for pure amusement.

What demo?

edited 11th Sep '12 12:49:50 PM by AnotherDuck

Most of the examples are Zero Context Examples.

Perhaps it might be best to cut it and send it to YKTTW so the examples can be discussed and fleshed out. Unless you don't mind doing all that right here.

edited 12th Sep '12 7:42:58 AM by DRCEQ

Does the Trickster Archetype belong on any set level?

That trope varies. I think it only needs to be mentioned.

So are their any fishing methods that don't happen to be both nouns and verbs? It is kind of unrelated but I felt like asking.

I'd have it sit in You Know the Thing Where until it gets at least three stars. I think I set a bad example by prematurely launching a couple of pages.

Bah, this has all the worst properties of the Sliding Scales for almost no benefit, and is poorly-formed to boot. The useful parts could probably be saved as a "Compare to _____ for when _________, and _______ for when _______. Make sure any examples don't belong there." note on the bottom of Troll.

edited 19th Nov '12 1:36:57 PM by Ironeye

Probably. Someone apparently created the page because each time someone tries to work up another solution they get stopped for no known reason.

What exactly is the problem with Troll that this was supposed to fix?

Well, currently it's about internet trolls but people all over the internet and this very site use it to refer to someone who just, well, trolls other people. Meanspirited pranks and manipulation. We've attempted to broaden the current trope or to move it to another article like Internet Troll but whenever we do that the thread always ends up locked. Apparently someone decided to try solving the problem in another manner.

Hmmm, that sounds like a case of Admin Fiat. I'll look into it.

Also, a major part of the problem regarding Troll is that we have a lot of examples better described as The Gad Fly mistakenly labeled as trolls. Due to the page being locked, we have no way to actually go in there and correct the problem. IIRC, When They Cry figured greatly into the original discussion, namely comparisons between Mion Sonozaki and Bernkastel and was the thing that inspired the general consensus solution that was reached before the repeated lockings.

Being someone who plays War Hammer 40000, I can attest to Tzeentch and his followers deserving their spot as trolls. The fall of "The Scourged" chapter of Space Marines is essentially the result of being trolled by Tzeentch and going mad as a result.

edited 24th Nov '12 8:56:24 PM by magnum12

To explain it to someone unfamiliar with your examples, currently Troll is being used for both friendly humorous teasing that would fit under The Gadfly and really harsh, cruel manipulation. As the person who launched The Gadfly in the first place, I can tell people here that it originally came to be because the Troll article was supposed to be about internet trolls and had all its example stripped out. That means there are three concepts at play here, but let's put internet trolls aside for the moment.

However, people are not using The Gadfly when they should be because it's not an established term. Troll is, but trolling is very loosely defined and refers to both teasing and cruelty. Attempts to rectify this have resulted in us apparently coming up against admin fiat to leave the troll page alone despite the very widespread misuse and apparent lack of the second trope.

edited 24th Nov '12 9:05:35 PM by Arha

To further add to all this, I tried creating a Sandbox Troll page to get the ball rolling for our solution, but that didn't work either. The recent sandbox purge basically destroyed my work. I have however, been trying to bring more attention to The Gad Fly when possible to broaden general knowledge of the page's mere existance via linkage and will continue doing so.

Some further evidence for total internet ignorance between the difference between the two. "Trollestia", via Know Your Meme. Two guesses as to what the true posistion is.

Kyuubey is an interesting case. Is he to be judged via his species perspective (deconstructed Blue-and-Orange Morality True Neutral) or by a human perspective (from which his manipulation and overall duplicity can easily render him a troll)?

edited 24th Nov '12 9:34:03 PM by magnum12

QB isn't an example, even from a human perspective. He's got a clear goal with his manipulations, and not just to get a reaction out of people. Manipulative Bastard is much more fitting.

Yeah. I think the idea behind the cruel trolling is that the manipulation itself is the ends, not the means to another end. That's what separates it from Manipulative Bastard.

If that's the case, then at the very least, we can add in some notes on various pages about Manipulative Bastard often being mistaken for a Troll (it does seem to be relatively common when means and motive are not analyzed seperately).

QB does however have a rather nasty reputation on the net for being a troll, though in this case its a mislabeling. This reputation is not helped in anyway by certain facial expressions i.e. a nightmarish "Troll Face" like expression he gives in the manga (point of time being somewhere around late episdoe 8-early episode 9 IIRC).

And that's the problem with memes. They're frequently wrong.

If we're differentiating motive from amusement, what do we do if both of them are interconnected? What if the character not only has a motive for his manipulations, but also gains immense amusement from his manipulations (taking delight in the havoc/emotional torment he spreads)? People like Terumi?

I'd define a troll as someone who does it only for the sake of trolling in itself. Otherwise you can essentially include anyone who enjoys teasing people, for whatever reason.

Clock is set.