Pussy Riot and Russia.

I don't consider Westbro's tactics to be wrong. I consider their display of outright bigotry and homophobia to be far worst than their tactics.

In the same way I wouldn't mind if somebody held a protest for what he did to his victims during Ted Bundy's funeral.

edited 20th Aug '12 12:14:59 AM by IraTheSquire

At least the Orthodox clergy weren't as OMGWTFBBQJAILTHEM as the court seemed to be. They forgave the band for desecrating the Russian equivalent to St. Peter's Basilica and asked the authorities to show as much mercy as the law permitted.

I don't think we can blame the sentencing on Putin. He did not personally have anything to do with it. The Russian system is just corrupt in the sense that it is built to follow the leader a little too much. I find some of our western systems are becoming like that these days.

Also I will note that I have no idea what Russia's laws are like, so I don't know if 2 years is excessive.

I'll put it into perspective for you. Two stupid Canadian tourists in the USA during the 2008 Olympics decided to deface an American flag. I'm still trying to figure out if they got convicted but they were threatened with 5-10 years imprisonment over the incident. So if you think Russia is the only country that has excessive punishments, let's take a look at ourselves first.

edited 20th Aug '12 2:07:13 AM by breadloaf

What they did was the equivalent in harassment terms of someone barging into a wedding and screaming "You bastard, I thought you loved me" - throw them out and fine them sure but there's no need to make martyrs of them.

The chainsawed cross just serves to prove that this isn't acting as a deterrent. Rather it is provoking more serious acts.

Can someone explain to me how that supporter cutting down a cross dedicated to the memory of an emotionally charged election that faced some rather brutal reprisals for peaceful demonstrators is somehow a good thing?

I'm not a religious guy, but I think cutting down a cross in any order is outright disrespectful.

As I recall, the logic was that for the Eastern Orthodox Church to erect a monument to victims of repression when they were aiding and abetting similar oppression in the next country over was deeply hypocritical - and the Church does indeed have some very nasty skeletons in its closet in that area of the world.

To analogise, it's like a group of protesters chainsawing a monument to victims of child molestation built by the Catholic Church last year, after it's been discovered that the Church had been covering up the existence of a paedophile ring in the Vatican at the time (note, none of this actually happened - it's just an illustrative example).

What's precedent ever done for us?

The problem with this is that your looking at religion like its some type of Hivemind. I doubt that the Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox Churches are connected to the corruption plaguing the leaders of the Russian Orthodox Churches. Hell, I doubt most Russian Orthodoxes (although outraged) believe that Pussy Riot got a fair sentencing. Its even stated in an above post that the Orthodox clergy forgave the band for desecrating the Russian equivalent to St. Peter's Basilica and asked the authorities to show as much mercy as the law permitted.

If people want someone to blame, then they should blame Putin, the corrupt courts and Patriarch Kirill himself (and not the religion he belongs to).

edited 20th Aug '12 4:44:45 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Unfortunately, talk is cheap. They did nothing to dissuade the court.

For comparison, it is entirely likely that the woman who chainsawed the monument will end up getting a lighter sentence. She is charged with the same crime as the 41 seconds of noise warranted.

The courts will do as they please, Orthodox clergy bedamned. They take orders from the men with the money, no doubt.

Like hell I can't. It's not tactics that are good or bad, but people and the organizations that they lead.

A bullet to the head for Osama, good. A bullet to the head for MLK, bad. War against Nazi Germany, good. War against native americans, bad. Protesting against Putin, good. Protesting against gays, bad.

The problem with this is that your looking at religion like its some type of Hivemind. I doubt that the Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox Churches are connected to the corruption plaguing the leaders of the Russian Orthodox Churches.

The Ukranian Orthodox Church operates under the auspices of the Russian one. They're quite intimately connected.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Your missing the point, you don't have the right to deface any religious monument just because a leader of that religion is corrupt.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

I will say that the chainsawing of the cross was a really stupid idea, mostly because it goes into territory that would be illegal anywhere in the world (destruction of public property), and that it might serve to make people who are against the protests further see the protesters as nothing more than a bunch of violent wackos.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:53:03 PM

What we need is a Russian-speaker who can kindly translate the lyrics they were singing in the church. (There was something in the song about "sh*t, sh*t, holy sh*t!" if I recall....) That way we can clear up misunderstandings as to what was actually said.

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:53:22 PM

And for the record, this was not actually played in the church, they couldn't actually assembl their equipment there that quickly, so they just added the music afterwards.

One of the more ridiculous parts of the trial was where eyewitnesses complained about being shocked by the loud music in the church, as if they were describing the finished youtube video instead of actually being there.

and Thanks for that. So yes, there are lyrics denigrating the church (especially Patriarch Kirill Gundyaev, who apparently supports Putin too much) and the state (put Putin away, obviously). Let's compare the reactions.

Orthodox clergy: rather subdued reaction. One loudmouth priest has made waves about this, but that's about it.

Russian government: 2 years for trespassing and hooliganism. Honestly, a Singaporean fine would have been enough already.

edited 20th Aug '12 8:18:33 AM by ArgentumUranium

Ah yes, But This Is Russia, Where The State Mocks You!

Yeah.

Keep Rolling On

I'm honestly baffled, once again, how anyone can support this. Can those of you who do please put down your reasons for supporting it in like...bullet points? I can't see this as anything other than an autocrat suppressing the free speech of people who disagree with him.

As for the Westboro Baptist Example, first, I think there's a distinction between free speech, and hate speech. Playing a (somewhat profane) protest song against a -specific leader of a church- (And only not attacking him for who he is, rather, attacking him for his policies) and protesting a (supposedly) elected official is one thing. Comparing it to picketing funeral of soldiers, chanting "God Hates Fags" is entirely different. You can't make a comparison. To try is utterly disingenuous.

Edit: And if people are in fact, utterly incapable of making that distinction, than I consider fuckwads like the Wesboro Babtists an acceptable price to pay for free speech.

edited 20th Aug '12 8:44:34 AM by DrTentacles

I'm not going to compare anything, just saying why I think 2 years in jail is reasonable.

• These 'ladies' did not come in peace. They came prepared and expected things. That's always a sign for demerit
• They went into a church and started singing things outside of acceptable contexts, without appointment
• They associated the country's leader with religion, negatively
• They should've aimed at the Patriarch rather than blaming Putin. It was only ONE Patriarch, but they sang like the whole religion was controlled by Putin. It's grounds of political AND religious slander.

edited 20th Aug '12 9:49:10 AM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

Cassie, not one word of that justifies any more than a small fine and a skelpt arse for breach of the peace or causing a public disturbance.

People should have the freedom to express themselves and no one should be legally immune from public criticism.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

No, it's not. If you fight against oppressors, you can be prepared that they will oppress you. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT OPPRESSORS DO! if being aware of that is a sign of demerit, then any resistance against authority is a sign of demerit.

The country's leader associaed himself with religion, first. And even if they did, then what? So do I, when I say that my prime miinister Viktor Orban is the Catholic church's whore. How many years should I get for that?

I don't think you understand how the Orthodox church works. That "one Patriarch" was Kirill I, The Holy Patriarch of Moscow and all the Rus and Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church. He is basically the Russian Pope.

If Benedict XVI says something, that's the official Catholic opinion, it's pointless to say that "well, that's just what the Bishop of Rome said, now let's ask all the other bishops." or after Putin does something, saying that "Well, maybe the rest of the Russian government thinks differently". Likewise, Kirill I is the supreme leader of his church, what he did is what the Russion Orthodox Church did.

Oh, and Putin has banned gay pride marches in Moscow - for 100 years - because of this.

That is punishing the entire LGBT community of the country, and is definitely unjustified.

edited 20th Aug '12 11:19:26 AM by CaissasDeathAngel

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

I know that. But the people who are against Pussy Riot WILL blame them for that. You need to understand how these people think.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:53:37 PM