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Needs Help: Darth Wiki.Wall Banger get usage counts

 1 Hotel California, Mon, 6th Aug '12 4:14:43 PM from In the middle of nowhere
Good 'til the last drop
There are several problems with this page. There isn't really a set criteria for can constitute as a "Wall Banger" and because of this, it is basically set up as a miniature version of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like. I also feel that all the pages are starting to overuse italics, bold, and ALL CAPS, which makes the commentators sound like whiners who throw a temper tantrum at the slightest provocations. Finally, the pages have too much Natter and Justifying Edits on them, even though the front page clearly states that tropers are to avoid using them.

I propose that we have Wall Banger adopt a similar criteria on posting and formatting like the Dethroning Moment of Suck pages, or if the damage seems too extreme, do an Example Sectionectomy. Your thoughts?
"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave".
 2 Septimus Heap, Tue, 7th Aug '12 1:06:37 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Example cut was already suggested back in January (I think).

Changing it to something akin to Dethroning Moment of Suck would create redundancy.

an example sectionectomy? you may as well just cut it at that point.

edited 7th Aug '12 9:32:57 AM by abk0100

 4 Septimus Heap, Thu, 9th Aug '12 9:53:30 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Are there In-Universe examples of this? Maybe we could limit it to In-Universe stuff.

If they use ALL CAPS or bold, it does not mean thay are whiners, they are just expressing thier feelings, you are overreacting, besides the flaws those 'whiners' find are pretty legit and pretty major.

edited 11th Aug '12 5:53:50 PM by Bioshock1000

 
 6 Septimus Heap, Sun, 12th Aug '12 1:02:01 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
No, we don't want pages for people to shout. It's bad writing and it runs against Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.

The Demon Slayer
I always thought that Wall Banger was about those moments when something goes wrong in a work — particularly bad Character Derailment, too much shilling of the Creator's Pet, too many Hand Waves, a particularly bad Retcon, an Idiot Ball used too much, or some other element that completely wrecks your Willing Suspension of Disbelief in a way that not even the MST3K Mantra can help with. Something like the example from Battlefield Earth with the Psychlo homeworld's atmosphere made out of radiation which led to one of The Nostalgia Critic's biggest rants ever.

Dethroning Moment of Suck, on the other hand, is simply "the worst moment, in your mind, for any character, work, series or general franchise; the nadir, the lowest point, the polar opposite of the Crowning Moment of Awesome, " and it notes that a Wall Banger may be why a particular moment is the Dethroning Moment of Suck, but not necessarily.

I think somewhere along the line, one or both of these tropes ended up mutating or being flanderized to the point that the two have become all but synonymous with each other.

 8 Septimus Heap, Mon, 13th Aug '12 2:09:10 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
It decayed into the complaint page. If it has enough In-Universe examples I think we could make this objective. Otherwise, merge into DMOS.

The main difference is that a DMOS is the poster's personal opinion on an event in a work. There have been examples on the various DMOS pages where others end up sharing this opinion, but most of the time its just their own opinion and feelings on the subject.

Wall Banger, on the other hand, are painful moments in a work that many viewers/readers/etc agree wasn't done well, was offensive, was stupid, etc.
 10 Septimus Heap, Mon, 13th Aug '12 2:29:06 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Yeah, and the name lends to hyperbole while the examples could just as well be on DMOS since we can't tell Troper Tales apart from genuine examples.

 11 Septimus Heap, Tue, 14th Aug '12 2:03:13 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
And yes, I've been checking the subpages. Several This Troper entries and ridiculous hyperbole that would make you think anyone watching these shows would suffer fatal head trauma in the process. Plus, there is no evidence that most of these examples are "of many people".

Options here are:
  • Cut.
  • Cut examples.
  • Merge into DMOS.
  • Limit to In-Universe examples (and return to /Main/)

Any ideas more?

edited 14th Aug '12 12:31:18 PM by SeptimusHeap

 12 crazyrabbits, Wed, 22nd Aug '12 5:40:26 PM from Mississauga, ON, Canada
Crazyrabbits
This trope has been discussed ad nauseum since I started here on the wiki three years back. There are several things I can tell you:

1) In all the time we've discussed what to do with WB/DMOS/SBIH, no one has ever given a good reason to delete it beyond "I don't like complaining".

2) There is a distinct difference between all three pages. WB is generally "bad" moments supported by other tropes that indicate bad or ineffective writing. DMOS is for examples signed by a poster, and expressing their own personal opinion where a work failed completely. SBIH is for works where even the intended fans agree that it was poorly made on just about every concievable level.

3) There will always be negativity on the wiki - WB is one of the structured outlets users can use to highlight bad writing in a more constructive form.

If there's whining or natter about moments that people seem to be contentious about, just remove it. You seem to want to take the baby with the bathwater - as I've said before, I doubt there would be enough support on this wiki to remove WB altogether. After all, it is one of the older pages on the site, and has survived through countless discussions on what to do with it. I haven't seen any evidence that there are In-Universe examples in the first place.

Nerds Are Sexy.. sometimes
"...no one has ever given a good reason to delete it beyond 'I don't like complaining'."

...Isn't complaining against this wiki's policy? Isn't that a great reason?

It seems like reasons to keep are more important.

EDIT: I'd really like to keep it myself, but my reasons are mainly "Complaining is funny and me forget the love within my soul."

edited 23rd Aug '12 12:08:18 AM by StopMentioningYourself

This has got to be like the 5,000th time I forgot my email or password...
You could talk me into cutting DMOS, but not this.

edited 23rd Aug '12 12:03:54 AM by AceOfSevens

 
There will always be negativity on the wiki

Doesn't mean there should be, and that doesn't mean we should allow it to fester if it's getting too much even for the wiki that shall not be named.

""Fought Nazi Vampires like Badasses" is a fine thing to have engraved on your tombstone." - Shiny Tsukkomi
 16 nrjxll, Thu, 23rd Aug '12 12:30:04 AM Relationship Status: Not war
1) In all the time we've discussed what to do with WB/DMOS/SBIH, no one has ever given a good reason to delete it beyond "I don't like complaining".

The reverse is also true - no one has ever given a good reason to keep it beyond "I like it" or "it doesn't bother me."

While I have no objection whatsoever to cutting the page, I also don't think it's causing any real harm. The question is whether being spectacularly off-mission is enough to doom it on its own.

edited 23rd Aug '12 12:31:46 AM by nrjxll

 17 Septimus Heap, Thu, 23rd Aug '12 8:30:42 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
The pages are horrendously written and don't have much more point than "I don't like it", because we can't verify that it's more than one person's thing. Also, the policy is called Complaining About Shows You Don't Like and is also on the Home Page.

That said, I don't think it needs to be completely cut.

I think that Wall Banger could stand to get the same treatment as So Bad, It's Horrible. SBIH has the premise that works can only be added if there is a broad, general consensus that a work is truly awful. So for instance, while there are many people who would consider Metroid: Other M a bad game, the game still has plenty of defenders, and its sales were underwhelming but not abysmal; therefore, it would not be added to SBIH.

WB could work the same way by limiting examples to aspects of a work that just about everyone agrees were really stupid (whereas Dethroning Moment Of Suck would be used for aspects that a troper personally considers to be stupid). Going back to Other M, while there are people who defend the voice acting for Samus or even the Ridley-freakout scene (which means they would be limited to DMOS), there doesn't seem to be anyone who thinks that the whole "authorization" mechanic was a good idea.

 19 Indirect Active Transport, Sun, 2nd Sep '12 7:50:39 PM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Mayday Mayday
Wall banger is a simple. A single incident of stupid that made you want to throw something against the wall. It is the Darth Wiki Counterpart to "Crowning Moment of Awesome", which was single best moment in the show, or was before it degenerated into its current state.

Was it a single incident? Did it make you want to commit violence against a wall? If yes it is a correct example, if not is not a correct example.

Granted, wall banger isn't about lying or spreading misinformation, so it's not exactly Darth Wiki material but as long as Moment Of Awesome exists, wall banger stays as its negative contrast. Well, dethroning moment is also crowning moment's negative counterpart but wall banger was first and is funnier so it stays until crowning moment is deleted.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Nerds Are Sexy.. sometimes
What makes Wallbanger different from Dethroning Moment of Suck, other than the latter only allows one entry per person?
This has got to be like the 5,000th time I forgot my email or password...
 21 Septimus Heap, Mon, 3rd Sep '12 8:18:42 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
^That is a big issue.

 22 Indirect Active Transport, Mon, 3rd Sep '12 10:12:25 AM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Mayday Mayday
Nothing really, we should delete Dethroning Moment because it is The Same but More Specific but whenever we try tropers simply cry and complain about how we've gotten rid of all but three complaint pages until everyone loses interest.

Okay, there is another difference. Wallbangers have to actually happen, Dethroning Moment can be false, so long as someone thinks it happened. No really, has anyone ever came up with a good reason for keeping that page?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
 23 Septimus Heap, Mon, 3rd Sep '12 10:18:05 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Okay, there is another difference. Wallbangers have to actually happen, Dethroning Moment can be false, so long as someone thinks it happened. No really, has anyone ever came up with a good reason for keeping that page?

No, DMOS can't be false.

Also, DMOS is in much better shape than Wallbanger. If anything, I would merge WB into DMOS.

 24 Indirect Active Transport, Mon, 3rd Sep '12 10:49:29 AM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Mayday Mayday
Not really, most of Wall banger is just instances of inconsistent writing or stupid decisions that someone didn't like. At most, it needs some special efforts to remove everything that isn't a single moment of stupid.(take a paragraph about Bleach's Aizen and break it down to individual entries on what he does) Maybe ax the This Troper too.

Dethroning moment, is against the entire wiki's body of NOT WRITING IN FIRST PERSON! The whole premise. Its pretty much Wall banger, with signatures. Oh, and unfalse, there has been a user on dethroning moment complaining about an Alicia Fox instance for example. Not that it actually happened but it happened that way but it's her dethroning moment! Who are we to say what she thinks?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
 25 Septimus Heap, Mon, 3rd Sep '12 10:52:21 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
You yourself agree that it's the same as Wallbanger. But I'd merge the Wallbanger into DMOS as DMOS's only concern is first person, whereas WB has also natter, generalizations etc. to boot.

Page Action: Wall Banger 2
9th Nov '12 11:05:09 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 62
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