Needs Help: Heaven And Hell

So, what is this trope? The name suggests it's just about the existence of both realms, which would seem to be redundant with the existence of separate Heaven and Hell tropes. The description seems to suggest that it's about some sort of war between Heaven and Hell... which might also be redundant with some other trope, but if not Heaven Vs Hell would be a better title. And the examples are sometimes one, sometimes the other, and sometimes just "divine beings" or "the afterlife".

Could be a supertrope. Does sound like at least some of the examples don't fit though. Gods or afterlife definitely shouldn't be enough even if this is taken as a broad supertrope.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

The existence of Heaven doesn't imply the existence of Hell, and the existence of Hell doesn't imply the existence of Heaven. However, it's extremely rare to see a work of fiction use only one without also including the other.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

It's not that rare in my experience. Devil, but No God is a pretty common trope, and Hell with no (explicitly confirmed) Heaven frequently goes along with it.

Well, that's a minor quibble—the point is, they're generally seen as going hand in hand, and if a work has one of them, there's a high probability that it will include the other.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

The fact that there are works with one or the other doesn't mean there aren't works with both, so I fail to see the relevance of the argument. This could still make a fine supertrope, since it covers the whole range.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Does this trope have a problem with False Dichotomy? As in, if one exist, the other must? Or, nothing else can be a choice?

The problem is I'm not sure what this trope is supposed to be, or what its relationship is supposed to be with those other tropes or whether it's even aware of their existence.

The trope is almost two years old but doesn't have that many inbounds. One more reason to do something about it, IMO. Supertrope of Heaven and Hell maybe? That could indeed work.

Clocking due to lack of activity.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

I don't see any reason to have this trope when we already have Heaven and Hell separately. Move to Cut.

Either cut or turn into some sort of "Afterlife Tropes" index?

something

Re-clocking.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

I say cut. Anyone who has figured out that we have a page for Heaven can infer that we have one for Hell, too, and vice versa.

Why? As said above, there's no reason to assume that because a work has Heaven it also has Hell or vice versa.

Because we're a wiki with the goal of making a comprehensive listing of devices and conventions used in all media, not a work, and these are two of the Oldest Ones in the Book?

That makes no sense. The wiki doesn't care if a trope shows up in a particular group of works or in "all media". We do have tropes which are exclusive to a single media (such as Animation Tropes, Radio Tropes, and Music Tropes). And I'm pretty sure Heaven And Hell appears in more than one work.

edited 23rd Nov '12 1:42:48 AM by KingZeal

Sure there is. They're traditional foils. It's one of the most prevalent examples of Shadowland in the history of fiction.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Yes, but that doesn't mean that every setting that has Hell also has Heaven or vice-versa.

For example, Bleach clearly has a Hell, but not a "Heaven". They have Soul Society, but it's not the same thing.

edited 23rd Nov '12 4:57:04 PM by KingZeal

Just because they're not always juxtaposed doesn't mean it's not a trope to juxtapose them. You can have The Smart Guy and The Big Guy on their own, but Brains and Brawn is still a classic archetypal duo.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Wait, are we agreeing or disagreeing? Because that was pretty much exactly my point.

@OP: I agree that Heaven And Hell is an ambiguous name. Heaven Vs Hell would be much better.

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Sounds limiting to me.

In some narratives, Heaven and Hell are not opposed. The Bible, for instance.

edited 23rd Nov '12 8:01:39 PM by KingZeal

I have another suggestion for a title, though it may be a little ambiguous: A Hell For Every Heaven.

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I don't see why it would need to be renamed? Maybe some tweaks to the description at most.

Rhymes with "Protracted."