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Total posts: [28]
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Duplicate Trope: Netorare Genre get usage counts

 1 Spark 9, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:23:39 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
In a recent Image Picking thread, it came up that Netorare Genre is basically the same as Your Cheating Heart, only restricted to porn. While there are certain elements commonly present in netorare (such as a guy forced to watch his girl having sex with someone else) these aren't a necessary part of the genre. Or So Ive Heard. The only necessary part is that someone is cheating.

So it is fundamentally the same trope, except restricted to one genre, and that doesn't sound like a good reason to have separate pages (and the page on netorare is kind of controversial). I think a merge is in order here.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 2 Komodin, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:32:09 PM from Somewhere in Windy Hill Zone Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Sonic Wiki Curator
I think we should also dial down on the negativity a smidge. I know netorare (and cuckolding in general) is controversial, but I think it'd be best not to take any sides on the matter.
NTR is about the cuckold fetish. Sexualized Your Cheating Heart.
 4 Kuro Bara Hime, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:35:38 PM from Somewhere...I think Relationship Status: Mu
☆♥☆
It could also be turned into a fanspeak page.

 5 Spark 9, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:37:32 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up][up] Rule 34 dictates that every trope has a fetish. Do we really need separate pages for "some trope and I find that sexy"?
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 6 nrjxll, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:38:03 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Amen.

[up][up] All of them? No, of course not. But this one? Considering that enough people find it sexy for it to become an entire genre, then yes.

My vote is to turn it into a fanspeak page, nuke the custom title, and make a Cuckold Fetish page for the general stuff like Basic Instinct.
It is a genre.

 9 Spark 9, Fri, 6th Jul '12 4:56:53 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] So is Your Cheating Heart: there's loads of romance novels about the topic.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 10 peccantis, Fri, 6th Jul '12 5:35:57 PM Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
the flies will find you
Netorare is a very specific type of partner infidelity, Your Cheating Heart is way too broad in scope for it. They should be kept separate.

edited 6th Jul '12 5:36:28 PM by peccantis

before the darkness arrives
 11 Spark 9, Fri, 6th Jul '12 5:43:00 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] Please define how it is a very specific type? Because it seems to me that any kind of situation that involves cheating and sex can be plausibly called netorare. As stated earlier, just because certain elemensts are common to netorare doesn't mean those elements are necessary for it.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Not exactly. It's very specific sort of fantasy where the cheating is meant to be both uncomfortable AND arousing. It's all about the conflicting of emotions between desire and jealousy, and feeling inferior.

Not all examples of cheating fit.

 13 Septimus Heap, Sat, 7th Jul '12 2:12:49 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
This post doesn't make me think that Netorare Genre is a more specific form of Your Cheating Heart. "Cuckholding" is as far as I can tell from other places a different thing than "Cheating"

The outcomes in the trope aren't the same, either.

 14 peccantis, Sat, 7th Jul '12 3:48:27 AM Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
the flies will find you
Just a moment, I'll dig around for that post I did for another thread. Here.

The central fantasy in Netorare is losing one's partner to someone (who, seeing how Netorare fans seem to get kicks out of such, can be losers and even simply vile). Through sex.

Also, it's most prevalent to start from a happy setting, i.e. none of those "we had been fighting" situations. It's just, here you are, happy with the perfect girl you don't deserve but she loves you, BAM here comes some random asshole who rapes/seduces her, she realises what a total loser you are, she dumps/forgets you. Added bonus if she's turned into a depraved nympho who will take anyone BUT you.

As for the beginning, it is always happy, perfectly or nearly so.

As for the middle, the woman's change of heart is always induced by (somehow superior) sex.

As for the ending, the protagonist never gets his woman back.

Out are any instances of Your Cheating Heart where the woman has any pre-existing thought to leave her guy, or the starting situation is anything less than loveydovey (it tends to start with "real love"). Out are those where the guy isn't deeply in love with her. Out are those where the woman's character itself is untrustworthy or flippant (her change is more dramatic if she's constant and faithful). Out are those where she leaves him for money, status, better looks, better character... it's always the sex. Out are those where he gets back to that guy / those guys that took her from him. Out are those where they get back together and/or reconcile (she just disappears from his life, except perhaps for cases where he can follow her situation "from the outside" for further hurts). Mostly, out are those where she doesn't change from a loveable little wifey to an inexcusable slut.

Out are those where he isn't forced to somehow witness the details of her infidelity and change.

Out are those where he's shown to get over it.

Need I go on?

edited 7th Jul '12 3:51:36 AM by peccantis

before the darkness arrives
 15 shimaspawn, Sat, 7th Jul '12 9:41:23 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Your Cheating Heart: A character hurts another character by cheating on them.

Netorare Genre: A character makes another character very very happy by cheating on them and rubbing their nose in it.

They're complete opposite tropes. They are not duplicates.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 16 Spark 9, Sat, 7th Jul '12 10:10:43 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] But Your Cheating Heart doesn't require the previous partner to be hurt, and neither does Nerotare require the previous partner to be happy about it.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 17 peccantis, Sat, 7th Jul '12 2:40:30 PM Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
the flies will find you
[up][up] As far as I know the protagonist in Netorare is NOT happy to be cheated on (I haven't read one work where this would have happened). The audience gets off on his misery, rather.
before the darkness arrives
The difference between Your Cheating Heart and Cuckold stories is the same as the difference between a Destructive Romance and Romanticized Abuse. The former is part of the latter, but there's additional elements to the latter that turns it into a fantasy.

Furthermore, the fantasy doesn't have to be something that the characters like. There can be a story with a Destructive Romance in which both characters are completely unhappy, but it's still presented as a fantasy similar to a superhero can be Blessed with Suck and still be a fantasy.

I can go into more explanation if you like. As I oft mention, I used to write professional porn stories, so I kind of have experience with this.

edited 8th Jul '12 1:05:23 PM by KingZeal

 19 burnpsy, Sun, 8th Jul '12 4:16:36 PM from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Abstaining
The Eternal Fool
shima is 100% off, as this post explains.
 20 Spark 9, Sun, 8th Jul '12 4:30:39 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Looks like we have disagreement over the exact definition of this trope.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 21 burnpsy, Sun, 8th Jul '12 4:46:20 PM from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Abstaining
The Eternal Fool
I'm surprised this disagreement even exists. The stuff shima described tends to be placed in a different section entirely, and a quick Google search gets an Urban Dictionary entry with Kuro Bara Hime's take on it voted 1256-59.

edited 8th Jul '12 4:49:19 PM by burnpsy

I'm seeing this thread pop up on my watchlist, but not getting any new posts.

Anybody else experiencing that?

 23 peccantis, Wed, 8th Aug '12 3:44:01 AM Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
the flies will find you
So, any new thoughts?
before the darkness arrives
Well, in other news, I made this YKTTW, although the description still needs work. There's something "missing" that I can't quite define.

You guys have it wrong... sorta... NTR isn't just Your Cheating Heart but fetishistic, it's about having someone who's yours taken away from you. If anything, it should be a supertrope to Your Cheating Heart. Or a subtrope. It's kinda zigzaggy on where it fits, but it's definately a family trope to Your Cheating Heart.

edited 18th Sep '12 3:49:52 PM by InfinityOrNone

 
Total posts: 28
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