Sexism and Men's Issues

I get what you're saying, Aszur. I've seen it too. White Guy advocacy loves to play Oppression Olympics. It's not enough that we have problems; what we really want is for everyone to agree that we're the Real Victims.

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Yeah, that sounds rather bitter to me.

And while it's true there are a whole lot of Oppression Olympics fanatics, there are also a lot of people who claim that the moment you say you're a victim, you're also claiming no one else is.

That interpretation is a zero-sum interpretation. It's assuming the orginal phrase, "the myth of male power", treats power as a zero-sum game, with the implication that if men suffer, women don't at all. If you don't want it to be treated as a zero-sum game, don't assume everyone else is treating it like that. Claiming someone is treating it as a zero-sum game is one of the more common strawmen in this topic.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:22:00 PM by AnotherDuck

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Disregarding the fact that Warren Farrell used to serve on the board for the National Organization for Women, or that he literally calls himself a feminist in the introduction, here's a rather illuminating quote from the book:

"I explain why [the world] is both patriarchal and matriarchal, both male- and female- dominated. The book explains male disposability without denying female disposability (e.g., when a man turns in his wife of forty for two twenties). That is an integrated approach."

I thought I had made it clear that he was specifically talking about financial obligations.

Oh, hey, guess who agrees with you?

"Ultimately I am in favor of neither a woman's movement nor a men's movement, but a gender transition movement."

Really, it just seems like you're assuming the worst with this guy just because he supports men's rights, and I think that's really unfair of you.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

I suppose so. I guess I am just bitter. I'm just very tired of dealing with those kinds of people and unfairly assumed he was one of them. I'm sorry.

Still wouldn't say it's both patriarchal and matriarchal, it's definitely patriarchal and we're just being hurt by that.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:27:26 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?

Because many men right move have this childish tendecy of palm themselves everything they make a "point" something like that:

Men: look, many men die in the army while you stay at home! women: well, you are right but... Men: YES, IM RIGHT,YOU ARE WRONG SO SUCK IT!

granted is a little over the top but the point stain, is quite hard to have a civil discussion about this without feeling in a childish debate.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:27:02 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

It's alright. I'm sorry for snapping at you.

I'm also not entirely innocent in this regard either. For a while, I let my bad experiences with feminists color how I felt about the movement as a whole. Right now I'm trying to move past that.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:39:43 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

I have not said a thing but I will happily steal all the positive credit for it.

Go me.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Yeah, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Just because he can argue that men have areas in which we are less privileged than women, does not mean he says that overall we are equally harmed.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

Not so much less privileged but more harmed by our own position of power.

Oh really when?

See, why's that? Why is it that even in the context of discussing men's issues, it always wraps back around to misogyny and patriarchy? Why is it that every double standard, every societal advantage, every gender-based problem that affects men is always made out to be a consequence of male privilege?

I'm not trying to come off as "but what about teh menz", I really am not. And I'm aware that this may be in part my privilege talking. But it sometimes does get frustrating that every issue of men's rights is made out to be that all you need is feminism, and feminism only. I get the feeling there's some myopia here at work.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

The reason it always comes back to Patriarchy is because we live in a Patriarchal society. Women's Issues are about Patriarchy and misogyny because Patriarchy is hurting women by reducing women to a status that is lesser than men.

Men's Issues are about Patriarchy and misogyny because Patriarchy is hurting men by enforcing strict, arbitrary guidelines on how to be a REAL man, punishable by consigning an individual man to the low status of women.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Yeah, all of our issues come from our position of power. Women have literally nothing to do with them.

Oh really when?

Dude.

It's the men's issues thread.

You don't have to apologize for wanting to focus on men's issues in the men's issues thread.

And anyone who would expect you to has no business being here.

Also, relevant◊.

edited 28th Jul '15 1:41:16 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Not every disadvantage men face and everything that hurts men is because men are "reduced to women". But that's still what it all comes down to in discussions. In the end, it seems that everything has to be about women. Even in a thread about men's issues.

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I disagree. I think to claim that women have no power when it comes to enforcing gender roles is... a little sexist. No offense, of course.

For instance, some of you may remember Catherine Kieu, the woman who castrated her husband after he asked for a divorce. After the news broke, the hosts of The View spent a whole segment tittering and giggling about it.

Is this symptomatic of a double standard against men? Absolutely. If the genders were reversed, nobody would be joking about it. Is it because we, as men, see women as weak? Partially, yeah, but last time I checked, The View was a female-hosted show with a mostly female audience.

We all have to accept responsibility when it comes to enforcing gender roles.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Manly women aren't really discouraged so long as they're manly in societally acceptable ways. All men want Amazons.

We like the Action Girl to be tough and proactive and badass. We find that sexy. Just so long as she remembers to submit to the man by the end of the film. Her counterpart, however, the Non-Action Guy, is at best comedy relief and at worst an obstacle, and is rarely portrayed in a positive light outside feminist works as a consequence.

We think lesbians are neato and happily encourage girl-on-girl action, but only so long as the girls will make an exception or two◊ when expected. However, even the slightest hint of male bisexuality or homosexuality is immediately shunned. If Black Widow was announced to have a scene making out with Scarlet Witch in the next Avengers film, it would at worst be accused of being empty titillation, but loads of people would gladly watch it. However, even so much as a single remark from Andrew Garfield pondering the idea of Peter Parker being gay can cause enough of an outrage to necessitate a public apology.

"One of the boys?" Great! So long as she winds up dating one of them by the end of the film. But no man sits down to a tea party unless it's a sacrifice he's making for his daughter, and we want to see a grimace or two to emphasize that he hates doing this and is only putting up with it for her sake.

The gender roles are much stricter for men than they are for women, because we're okay with women incorporating masculine behaviors into their activities. Societally, we think that's great, because male behaviors are encouraged and female behaviors are shunned. It's only when women fail to live up to female obligations that we have a problem with it.

But men are expected to uphold only male behaviors and only male obligations, because we consider male behaviors to be encouraged and female behaviors to be shunned.

edited 28th Jul '15 2:16:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Thing is none of that behaviour is inherently male or female, you're accepting their premise of there being such a thing as "male" actions and "female" action. That entire concept is bullshit, they've made it up to try and keep us in our place.

You'll also note that the men behind these concepts don't subscribe to them, the men behind the draft wern't the ones being sent to die in pointless wars.

Yes the problem is the patriarchy, but the patriarchy isn't about "men good women bad", it's trying to make us think that to get us to fight each other, the patriarchy is about a select elite (that does include some women) going "men are useful to me in this role and women in this one, let's trick them both into thinking that that role is one they naturally should inhabit".

We like the action girl after a long fight from feminists to break down gender roles imposed by the patriarchy, not because the patriarchy inherently likes that idea.

My big problem with the fall-back of "the patriarchy enforces these gender roles on you" is that it's often used to stop the conversation and that it acts like men are some giant hive mind. Yes, men are behind painful and hurtful gender ideas and roles that result in the death of many men who are tricked into believing them, the fact that men are behind this does not make it okay!

Oh and on the book, remember again that the writer specifically stated that the forcing of men into horrible gender roles is an old old thing and well pre-dates modern feminism.

edited 28th Jul '15 2:31:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

They used to be.

It being acceptable for women to perform masculinity is only really a thing after a hundred years of feminist activism and societal upheavals. Men never got that same cultural push.

In the old, traditional views of gender, a woman performing her gender role and acting feminine was a good thing, while her stepping outside of her gender role by acting masculine was a bad thing.

Likewise, a man performing his gender role with masculinity was a good thing, and stepping outside of his gender role by performing femininity was a bad thing.

"But it sometimes does get frustrating that every issue of men's rights is made out to be that all you need is feminism, and feminism only. I get the feeling there's some myopia here at work."

Yeah I can see that too, I feel women are ether victim or just misguided enforcer of patriachy, an almost any sexist concept a women can have is result of it, getting a vibe of "the root of all sins is men" which it become a problem latter one(like the doble standar of abused)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Women can be manly as long as they're sufficiently womanly. Men can be womanly as long as they're sufficiently manly.

But I don't see how "Men can only act as men, and women can act a little like men if they also act enough like women" translates into "manly good, womanly bad". Manly good, maybe. But if that was really true to the same hyperbolic extent as the above () argument, a woman acting like a man would be a good thing, since male behaviour is encouraged.

It's not that black and white.

On the topic of enforcing gender roles, I don't think it would work nearly as effectively as it has done if it wasn't supported by the vast majority of the population. It's only really started to break down once long-distance communication between common people became widespread enough to allow larger groups to form from individuals and smaller groups spread out all over the nations.

edited 28th Jul '15 2:36:57 PM by AnotherDuck

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Over the last decades we did see a push for women to take roles and jobs usually associated with men and for it to be socially acceptable.

The reverse wasn't true for men. We still give crap to any men who aren't bread winners, stay home dads and men working on female associated jobs like nurses and teachers. God forbid being a man who can't support himself much less someone else.

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No, because a woman acting too much like a man cant' be controlled anymore. She's a threat. Slaves are encouraged slave-like behaviour. That doesn't mean those behaviours are seen as a good thing in the ruling class. In Western culture, femininity and masculinity were each ascribed a lot of dichotomies. And the male ones are/were usually considered the more desirable ones.

• active/passive
• rational/emotional
• strong/weak
• dominant/submissive

etc.

And while both were pressured into roles and punished for not living up to them they are not exactly equal.

Unmanly men are a failure. Unfemninine women are a threat.

edited 28th Jul '15 3:16:43 PM by Antiteilchen

I'm actually pretty happy, because shows like Steven Universe are taking to it in depicting caring and more emotional dude like folk. If we can get more stuff like that in the mainstream, we might be able to alleviate the toxic standards for "CHOMP ON TESTOSTERONE ALL THE TIME"

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Men who fail to live up to the standards are failures, but men who refuse to play by the patriarchy's stupid games and instead reject the stupid gender roles and call them on what they are.

You better believe we're a threat to the system, if they don't fear us now give us a few years to organise, they will.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Yeah, I totally agree. Here's a post I just made on Reddit about how Greg is a prime example of a healthy male role model.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.