Sexism and Men's Issues

How about this Kids React youtube video? It's relevant and cute, I think.

It is cute. Though the bit where the kid says "I can't hit her because she's pretty and a girl" is something that bothers me. It's wrong to hit people, period. Not because they are attractive or of a certain gender.

EDIT: And they actually talked about that partway through. Never mind; complaint retracted. That was pretty well done.

edited 4th Mar '15 6:33:57 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'm quite sure some of them don't want to be in "polite society", or have ever lived in one. I just hope you don't meet any of them in Real Life, or if any recognise you on the street — and anyhow, tried finding where they live and contacting their local Police, with evidence?

edited 4th Mar '15 11:52:36 PM by Greenmantle

Sadly, all too often "says shitty things on the Internet" is not a cause for arrest. I once tried to report a guy who posted an incredibly long blog post about how he tied his son up in the basement and starved him for the crime of listening to rock music, and was told that nothing could be done. And that was a case where the guy actually admitted to committing a crime. Guys like Vox Day, who "only" go on about how women deserve to be raped, or how educating them will ruin society, haven't done necessarily something they can be arrested for. Seriously, if being a misogynistic dick was a prosecutable offense, AVFM and other such sites would have been shut down a long time ago, and this thread would be a whole lot shorter.

As to the bit about hoping I never meet anyone like that in real life, I don't live under a rock. Hell, I live in one of the most redneck towns on the planet. I'm surrounded by people who espouse similar views to the ones we've been discussing, and they all know exactly what I think of them. I'm not different in real life than I am online. Somehow it hasn't gotten me beaten up or shot yet.

@Victin, Ha, that was awesome, and very beautiful. I particularly liked that part in the beginning where the boys complimented the girls, it's a pretty good way of showing how Girls Have Cooties it's not just stupid but also a pretty poisonous mindset. (Little boys who have that are never going to see them as human beings, or friends, or buddies, which is already bad but then they reach puberty and start seeing them as sexual objects, and then, well....)

But one thing that I disliked is how most of the boys in it, and apparently some of the kids interviewed agreed with, just summarized their opposition to slapping them as "because she is a girl" it kinda feeds into the chauvinistic mindset that girls are delicate and supposed to be protected which also does a lot of harm.

That said, given that the original video's purpose was to protest against the abuse of women, I can't say objectively it's a weakness, in fact it's arguably a strong point.

I don't think the kids were coached, but I can't confirm that belief. That'd defeat the entire point of the "X Reacts" series. But of course, there's the magic of editing.

Indeed, the original video and the reactions focus on male-on-female abuse, though the people behind the Kids React video did mention female-on-male abuse to the kids. Though I don't remember any mentions of other kinds of X-on-Y abuse, such as female-on-female or male-on-male abuse.

Speaking as someone who got beaten up by a female bully in the fifth grade I take issue with the whole idea that "a boy should never under any circumstances hit a girl". I think as a general rule you should never hit anybody, but if someone else assaults you first you have a right to defend yourself. The fact that they asked the kids about female-on-male abuse removes a lot of complaints I have about the particular vid though. The one little boy even comments on how while he's been told the usual rule is you should never hit a girl, he's never heard the opposite and how that's a problem.

Actually, this reminds me of a story from when I was growing up. When I was seven or eight I was a big fan of the Transformers show Beast Wars. In it, at various points, female villain Black Arachnia will open fire on heroic character Silverbolt, who refuses to shoot back because "you should never strike a lady". My mom saw me watching that, and afterwards pulled me aside and told me that if a girl was trying to hurt me, I should hit back.

edited 5th Mar '15 11:31:41 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Your mother had the right idea.

I've always thought so.

@Euo Bring your hardcover, I will grab a bust of hippocrates labeled "Do no harm" and fite you with it.

Hey, I know better. I just do not care. That makes me negligently evil, not purposefully villanous. I am more like Nero than Caligula. No less deserving of burning, but still more lazy than an asshole. At least I know it, though!

Besides, I do not work in clinical psychology, I do labor psychology. So unless there is a work force out there that is infringing on labor practices based on an economy of "posting online about wanting to fuck their mother" then I will let my work ethics flow like a monsoon.

Could not have said it better myself.

It's not something I am particularly proud to recognize! Just sayin' that I do and I give no fucks. I am aware I am not really making it any better, or helping anyone in any way but I am a bit jaded in the aspect of social advances of sexism.

So I will strive to apply it in my life, but I do not strive to do so in others'.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2015/03/irate-indian-mob-lynches-rape-accused-150305174906211.html

So much for due process.

Now there is mob justice.

But the guy was under an investigation still...why did they not lynch that one guy who said women who fought back deserved to be raped?

I mean, I would not have been happy if they killed him too, death was too good for him. But still, what the fuck, India.

Oh dear lord. The MR As are gonna have a field day with this.

This is terrible, yes, but they're going to push this like an everyday norm.

It is not as if they would grab the smallest most unrelated incident for their purposes in any case. if the mob had found him naked and raping the girl and stabbing her, filmed it, and then lynched him, they would still find cause to defend him.

Was he guilty though?

He was under investigation. No sentence had been attributed yet.

RE: Rapist lynching in India

Well this just sucks on so many levels. There's the fact that mob justice substituted for actual justice. There's the fact that the guy may not even have been guilty. There's the fact that, even if he was, the manner in which he met his exit is what is going to dominate the news cycle. There's the fact that his victim is now denied the actual justice of seeing him beaten in a court of law—and accordingly, of India having to deal with its massive rape problem. And there's what Zeal brought up. We're not going to hear the end of this in MRA land, and worse yet, the fact that this was a legitimately bad thing that happened means they'll actually sound sort of almost reasonable to people who don't know their agenda.

Put more succinctly, this is a lose-lose-lose situation for everybody involved. Except, I suppose, the mob.

@Aszur

I think your being jaded about fixing sexists, is pretty understandable, especially given the specific people we were talking about in that last conversation. Sure, maybe we could improve your average, garden-variety sexist, but the kind of guy who goes online to rail about how he should have been taught how to rape and maim women? That's not getting repaired anytime soon.

I'll be honest, it bothers me a little bit that we hear about a gruesome tragedy and our first reaction is "oh God, those guys will use this as fuel for their arguments".

I can understand that. I suppose most of us assume that it goes without saying that we are appalled by the gruesome tragedy in question (I know I certainly am) and that stating it isn't necessary.

While the actions were gruesome, the same kind of thing also happened when the initial killings (before the Reign of Terror) in The French Revolution, which, despite being brutal, were, in hindsight, needed so that "others wouldn't have to be terrible" (to paraphrase a famous phrase by Danton) and that there wouldn't be an injustice as great as it had been until then.

This initial mob justice was used by monarchies to either fight against France or to keep their privileges (or, alternatively, conceding just enough so that they would be left alone). It had a strong effect, since the core ideas were spread throughout the world.

And perhaps these cases, while being gruesome, might help to: a) further bring rape back into the main agenda and how people should fight against it; and b) serves as a initial deterrant to people who might think of raping someone.

The laws and the enforcement become more clear and more efficient as a result, and, along with a trans-generational change of mentalities, will lead to less rape in the long term.

In short, this event helps as a wake-up call, as more women (and, later, men) will feel encouraged to denounce their rapists, since they will feel protected.

(Somehow, I think I'll see a shitstorm of arguments coming against this post, for the wrong reasons)

edited 5th Mar '15 3:15:16 PM by Quag15

I'm sorry to say that the threat of execution—even brutal, messy, agonizing execution—has never been a deterrent for any sort of crime. Criminals simply do not expect to get caught.

As for the French Revolution—you do realise that it didn't actually result in greater freedom, right? The ideals of the French Revolution were excellent, and a lot of modern democracy is heavily based on them, but the Revolution itself was a bloody nightmare that eventually devoured its own, and resulted in the state returning to monarchy under first Napoleon, and then Louis-Phillipe. It took another revolution, another Napoleonic monarchy, and the loss of the Franco-Prussian War before France actually evolved into something we'd recognize as a democracy, and the death toll was immense. Napoleon I, by himself, got hundreds of thousands of people killed across Europe.

In short, mob justice doesn't usually lead anywhere good.

EDIT: And of course that's ignoring the fact that the guy hadn't been convicted yet. I'm sorry, but "raising awareness" isn't worth sacrificing the life of somebody who may not have done anything.

edited 5th Mar '15 3:25:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I believe in innocence until proven guilty, and I don't think that a so presumed innocent getting lynched to death is a net positive if it raises awareness.

Obviously. I'm not ok with this current mob justice for the reasons Ninety said above.

As someone who has read and contributed a bit to the page here on it and has read and analysed media about it a bit thoroughly, the Revolution, in and of itself, didn't work. But I guarantee you that it was still needed. Of course, it is different from the current news case, since the rapist doesn't need to die, and simply to be sentenced (provided there's sufficient evidence), but I wanted to drive the point that sometimes, brutal things have to be done in order to give a wake-up call. I don't approve of the mob's actions, let me reaffirm that.

That wake-up call led to better systems of democracy and justice being implemented and perfectioned as time went on and people learned from the mistakes committed in the past.

That's why I said this bit:

edited 5th Mar '15 3:41:28 PM by Quag15