Black Panther

My dad's a hesitant(but also Hispanic) Trump supporter with bigoted tendencies so it was interesting to see his reaction.

He thought it was politicized but didn't have an issue with that.

He had an issue with the tech and Wakanda. It's billed as this badass futuristic city but it's not futuristic enough .

He thought the armored rhinos and the spear-guns was stupid although he liked the fist lasers that Shuri uses. Reason being that he kept asking himself why would you use rhinos to fight when you can just build ships and tanks with lasers.

Also according to him, Wakanda looked too much like a Third World country. Only the train, the healing, the suit and some of the weapons were advanced.

So he actually expected it to be better but it ended up overrated for him.

edited 16th Feb '18 1:16:09 AM by MadSkillz

Anyways, I personally liked the film but it definitely could've been better.

Erik Killmonger was the best character in the damn movie and he was played like an enigma in the first half but stayed compelling until he takes the throne. Then he turns into a mustache-twirling bad guy until near the end when he goes back to the great character he was before he became king.

This movie should've focused more on Erik in the first half and made him a bit more sympathetic in how proceeds to interact with people instead of forcing us to side with T'Challa cause he's evil.

Engage Erik in a debate and defeat him that way along with a fight.

Also, I thought I wouldn't like Shuri but she along with Okoye were great.

I thought T'Challa's girlfriend was kinda meh.

And T'Challa was a little too much of a conventional hero for my taste. I would've preferred it if he was a bit grayer. Like Thor chose to be a good man rather than a good king in Thor 2.

I would've liked it if T'Challa chose to be a good king over a good man and made some morally gray sacrifice for Wakanda.

edit:

Like goddamn, it was so close to being a great movie if it didn't half-ass the social commentary part and had legitimately embraced it all the way.

edited 16th Feb '18 2:04:11 AM by MadSkillz

I don't think it half-assed the political commentary to be honest. The first half immerses you into Wakandan culture and its inner workings. Which is why Klaw is the opponent of the first half: he's a outside force trying to take advantage of Wakanda. The first half if showing how Wakandan society works and stands in a basic day and how great that society it is. This is highlighted by T'challa's conversation with his dad, in which they're both pretty happy with what Wakanda is and how it works. It's showing how great that nation is and what is capable of, we see its traditions, culture, and its might. Thus, the opponent is Klaw, a outside force trying to take advantage of it.

The second half shows the sins of Wakanda and the problems within that society, immersing into the fact Wakanda isn't perfect as the first half showed, there are a lot of problems that need fixing and upholding the status quo isn't enough. This is hightlighted by T'challa's second conversation with his dad, in which T'challa basically tells him that he fucked up, that he was wrong, and that this society needs to change. We see its traditions and culture causing harm and occasionally breaking down entirely. Thus the opponent is Killmonger, "a monster of our own making" to quote T'challa.

TLDR: 1/2 is about the pride of Wakanda, 2/2 is about the flaws of Wakanda and the opponents chosen reflect that. It's essentially a Decon-Recon Switch about Wakanda itself, building up how great it is before showing its flaws (but concluding its still goddamn amazing).

Also, on Killmonger's actions, I feel he's a commentary on American interventionism in a interesting way. He has clearly very noble goals in mind and he has a massive point about his ethos, but Erik has only superficial knowledge of Wakandan culture itself and doesn't give a shit about its traditions in any way, so he disrespects them at any chance he gets, because he truly doesn't care.

T'challa starts from the opposite end of the spectrum in which he only cares about Wakandan tradition and culture and Killmonger makes him realize that it is not a zero-sum game and you can (and you should) maintain your culture while moving forward, thus his decision to go to the UN at the end of the film and start a Wakandan outreach program.

edited 16th Feb '18 2:38:10 AM by Gaon

I think associating an African-American with America is silly.

Erik comes from a position of victimhood not as an oppressor whereas T'Challa is closer to the actual expression of America with his privileged background, powerful country status and the division between accepting refugees or not and whether to isolate or share with the world. He even has an almost kind of invisible wall to keep foreigners out. Note that I say closer.

I'm actually seeing some Trumpers even try to equate T'Challa with Trump (not that I think he's like Trump at all).

Anyways, they have Erik smiling while he's trying to murder people. He's talking about overthrowing world governments and burning the heart herb and choking people out if they hesitate in following his orders. Erik would've been one of the greatest villains in Marvel's universe if they had toned down his mustache-twirling just a little bit. They took the easy route and over-exaggerated his extreme attitude. He needed more nuance.

I guess I came away from this movie thinking that Erik should've been the Black Panther if they had tweaked him a bit to make act him more sympathetic.

Also, I think it was a mistake not to show Wakanda's reaction to Erik's usurpation of the throne and not to have T'Challa interact more with the populace.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:01:02 AM by MadSkillz

Personally, I feel that Erik should have been the main focus of the movie, with T'Challa being the Hero Antagonist.

Yep.

Best line:

Killmonger: “Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships, because they knew death was better than bondage

There was something so compelling there. He's the African-American version of Magneto to me in terms of appeal so the character is going to stay with me a little.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:12:41 AM by MadSkillz

“I'm actually seeing some Trumpers even try to equate T'Challa with Trump (not that I think he's like Trump at all).“

I mentioned that earlier. Trust me they’re being deliberately obtuse there. Kindest interpretation is that they’re trying to catch liberals on supposed hypocrisy by going “ Oh so Black Country deciding hoard all its wealth be super patriotic and traditionalist and refuse refugees is good ?” ...ignoring that this stuff has typically been criticised in the B.P books.

Not always mind you but usually.

Erik is both victim and oppressor. One can be both. Most films about the Vietnam War have that dichotomy of the draft youth being both victims of the American system hurling them into a war they didn't choose, but oppressors of Vietnam itself as a cog in the war machine of the American occupation. You can be a victim of racism as a black man, but an oppressor as a male figure of the patriarchal system.

Killmonger has a tragic past and the film itself acknowledges he deserves better, but he's still a ruthless mercenary who spends most of his life killing people and basically overthrows a foreign government to install his own rule and plans on invading other nations. He's a victim as a lower-class black man but an oppressor as a foreign invader of other countries. The nuance is what makes his character interesting.

What I find sillier is trying to compare a isolationist African kingdom trying to survive in a geopolitical landscape constantly trying to exploit it to the world's biggest hegemonic empire that built its entire power base on exploiting other nations one way or another.

As for Erik being the main character, I'm gonna have to pass on that. While Killmonger is fascinating, I'm much more interested in the POV of having a African King dealing with his African nation's problems and how his nation relates to the world at large as a main character rather than the hundredth Homegrown Hero dealing with his home issues (as important as they are). It's a more refreshing POV.

EDIT: The comparison to Magneto is rather apt in that sense. I love Killmonger too, but I don't mind the way his arc ended up. It is perfectly in-character for him to choose death in the end.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:30:17 AM by Gaon

Fair enough but that just makes Erik more interesting as you say. T'Challa is not the oppressed. He's literally royalty.

I think they should have emphasized more how T'Challa himself is a prince and Erik is a self-made man. Yes, Erik talks about Wakanda's privilege but he doesn't throw that down as much down to the personal level against T'Challa.

I was actually comparing T'Challa to America and not Wakanda to America and I didn't say they were 1 for 1, I just said that T'Challa is closer to being America than Erik Killmonger is. But I meant in premise.

Erik only becomes the closer comparison to America when he takes the throne and his character goes full imperialist and starts talking about a Wakandian Empire that sun will never set on and starting a world revolution that take control of countries for people of African descent.

You were also the one that brought that comparison in.

Personally, the film should've been two heroes fighting each other rather than a villain and hero fighting each other.

You have the privileged but heroic warrior prince that wants to help his country only but the passivity of his nation is a problem when his country could do so much good.

Erik would've been the heroic commoner to royalty that wants to help people but he's too extreme and interventionist.

Perfect. You don't have to have Erik kick puppies to get that done. Don't be afraid to make him likeable. Let them both be heroic and duke it out.

And then have them both meet in the middle or have T'Challa take a more moderate view and then bring in Killmonger to his viewpoint after he beats him or mortally wounds him.

edited 16th Feb '18 4:10:45 AM by MadSkillz

Also I want Black Panther to be Doctor Doom's nemesis not Red Richards.

You know how I thought T'Challa would defeat Erik?

I thought it would involve the former drowning or some other forms of asyphyxiation.

Because hey, there ain't no oxygen tank function in the Panther suit. XD

Anything about the Soul Gem?

Just as Erik is both victim and oppressor, so is T'challa. As royalty he's a sheltered part of a troubled system, but he's also victim of foreign and internal threats trying to trouble Wakanda (Klaw, M'baku, Killmonger). His case is just far less pronounced because as Black Panther A) tanks every threat (barring Killmonger) B) is a pretty Nice Guy C) because his arc is all about realizing just upholding the status quo isn't enough and seeking to change things.

Probably because he himself wants to take over T'challa's place (and at no point seems very concerned with Wakandan society as of itself, as I noted beforehand).

Well we're introduced to him as a ruthless (and yet well-intentioned) Guns For Hire killing people for money and what we next learn about him is that he's a a former mercenary and veteran with experience on overthrowing governments for the sake of the American government, so I'd say the comparison comes a tad earlier. He's literally a soldier of American interventionism in his backstory.

Hell, even during his first bout with T'challa he the very first thing out of his mouth is talking about all the people he killed in foreign countries.

Well, there will be sequels. I personally think the movie already had a lot on its plate (introducing the entire Wakandan society, culture, standing in the world, unique blending of cultures, technological level, magic, myths, government, a gargantuan cast of tridimensional characters and a complex racial theme) to also try deconstructing T'challa himself as a character without becoming bloated.

One of the runs the film takes inspiration from (the Neihisi Coates one) runs headfirst into T'challa's role as a privileged member of royalty and his relation with society, so I'm pretty sure the sequel will address that.

You were also the one that brought that comparison in.tongue

Well, technically, I think it was the director. It seems way too clear (to me, at least) for it to be unintentional.

That's fair enough.

But:

Thing is, I think Erik's ruthless actions are tantamount to the nuanced parallel I just said. The fact he unceremoniously tramples over Wakandan culture (and people) despite his noble goals are exactly what make the rivalry interesting to me (and Killmonger a richer character), because he is both victim and oppressor. If you have him just arrive and be a heroic dude you have an American (even if an African-American) going to Africa, overthrowing its government, and then lecturing Africans how to live their lives.

To be noted that's more or less what happens. The only difference is Killmonger chooses to die. I understand why you feel different but I felt it was a nice ending to his arc, and his death is too beautiful for me to let pass.

edited 16th Feb '18 4:44:02 AM by Gaon

I bet that Black Panther has already broken out of the Minority Show Ghetto...

Well I had prepared a long answer but a bad type erased it, so I'll be brief: best MCU movie, hands down, no other comes even close. First third is the weakest because it is the most conventional one, but as soon as the links with the MCU are broken (bar for Ross), it becomes its own movie and it is absolutely epic, awesome, enthralling, gorgeous, well-played, incredibly diverse, very well-acted, and super relevant in the world we are living in. It is a movie that takes itself seriously like Wonder Woman, not ironically, and it works incredibly well. That's awesome.

I don't want Avengers 3, I want to see more of Wakanda. I actually don't want to see T'Challa exchanging jokes with whoever is assigned in his scenes.

Well, unless Avengers 3 is T'Challa, Okoye, Nakia and Shuri saying "well, the world is too primitive, we're just going to deal with Thanos ourselves, keep Earth safe while we do the job", and come back later having entirely succeeded. I would dig that.

The sentiment that Erik was the most sympathetic character and should have been the Black Panther is basically a summation of everything wrong with the movie. I think T'Challa gets one line about how "You have become your enemies" and that's about the most refutation Killmonger gets as a villain, and even then he still gets a noble death and final line that still serves to validate him rather than T'Challa. I don't know, the movie just really didn't want to prove Killmonger wrong strongly enough.

The guy is basically endorsing the Talion law and another kind of racial supremacy. T'Challa does spell it rather late in the movie, but you shouldn't need him to understand how wrong Killmonger is, I think.

Edit: also, since I read the earlier comments, I'd say that the "unfinished" social commentary, or the feeling that it could have gone further, stems from that problematic first third which ties the movie to the MCU. It's almost entirely unnecessary, and could have been widely cut to give more room to see closer shots of Wakanda itself and its inner politics.

edited 16th Feb '18 10:23:10 AM by Julep

As I've mentioned a few times, he's also extremely callous towards Wakandan society and tradition. I think that makes it pretty clear how wrong he is when we see (after an entire movie building up our respect for said society) him being so dismissive and outright harmful towards it.

Just got back from seeing it. Good movie. Gold star. Or should I say Vibranium Star!

Killmonger has resentment towards Wakanda because of his father's death. As far as we know, that was his only family, and it makes sense that he doesn't really give a shit about Wakanda or it's traditions. He's never lived there and, moreover, this country's former king- the son of which currently sits the throne- is personally responsible for killing his dad. Wakanda, to him, doesn't mean much beyond it's ability to help him see through his father's vision of what the world should be like.

edited 16th Feb '18 12:03:32 PM by Gault

538 on why Shuri is an important character.

100% agree on the scene-stealing. In my dreams, she goes on to star in her own franchise, along with newly introduced Ms Marvel Kamala Khan. The Inhuman Nerd and the Cheeky Genius! They fight crime!

edited 16th Feb '18 12:03:25 PM by Julep

I can see why some would say that Killmonger was not refuted hard enough, or how it seemed that the movie relied on his ruthlessness for and disinterest in Wakanda's traditions for us to know he is wrong. However, I believe that T'Challa's remark about how Killmonger will become like his oppressor's was not handled in the cliche way, though I will cede that these traits are shorthands for letting us know who the villain is. At least he was not a full blown Malcolm Xerox, which may have been the case if it was a non black director.

Like a lot of the issues bought up, I believe that one must have an understanding of the context in which they are speaking. Killmonger conquering other nations is wrong because we see how imperialism/militarism has destroyed lives, cultures, nations. We are still feeling the affects of imperialism today.

I can also see why people believe that they could have gone further with the social commentary, but I refer back to my previous point of knowing the context. Besides, they quite bluntly made references to colonialism. Speaking of the social commentary, I loved how it touched on and whether intentional or not alluded to American foreign policy, interventionism, and exceptionism. What resonated to me the most was how T"Challa told his father he was wrong for leaving Erik for the benefit of his country, and all the past kings they were wrong for allowing for injustice because of Wakanda's isolationist policies.

I'm gonna be pissed if she's a throw-away character. I want to see her standing next to Tony Stark in Avengers 3 as a part of Wakanda's new international outreach policy, their combined technological knowledge contributing to Thanos' destruction.

edited 16th Feb '18 12:04:53 PM by Gault

She is the most Avengers-friendly character on the cast. The others I am not sure about in a more "light-hearted" setup, but Shuri would feel just right.

I want a scene of her looking at Tony's armor and bluntly telling him that his engineering abilities suck ass.

Possibly with Peter (Parker) in the background filming the scene.

edited 16th Feb '18 12:08:02 PM by Julep

@Gault: Erik has a lot of reasons for what he does, but it doesn't make his utter dismissal and destruction of Wakandan culture any more justifiable.