Ambiguous Name: Tsunshun

What the????

While Tsundere is arguably in the process of becoming a loanword, I don't think the same argument can be made for Tsunshun.

I'd never heard of the term before, although I had heard of the concept.

Also, this trope appears to not have gone through YKTTW, at least there was no YKTTW archive on the discussion page.

Description needs to be better... and some of the examples are really iffy. Asuka and Taiga probably count, but I don't know about the others.

Frankly I think this page needs to be cut and sent back to YKTTW.

Then it needs to be considered if this is really all that different from Broken Bird and Jerkass Woobie. It seems to me we already have this covered.

I believe the intent was more of "Tsun-Shun" — as in, combining the "Tsun" part of Tsundere, which means "cranky", "harsh", and/or "aloof", with the English word "shun", since the trope revolves around a Tsundere whose soft side is hidden because of a much more all-abrasively defensive personality that the Tsundere in question adopts as a form of (over)compensation for either personal flaws, past heartbreak, or a Dark and Troubled Past.

edited 14th May '12 6:53:00 AM by MarqFJA

Wow, this looks like a mess. I have no idea what this page is about.

I think the concept is already covered by existing tropes. CUT.

edited 14th May '12 6:53:16 AM by lu127

If I understand correctly, it's intended to be a subtrope of Tsundere, where the Tsun (harsh) aspect is predominant enough to overshadow/eclipse the Dere (soft) aspect, as a result of (over)compensating for personal flaws or a troubled past.

edited 14th May '12 6:56:45 AM by MarqFJA

Broken Bird and Sugar-and-Ice Personality.

Also, combining Japanese and English into a single word for a title is a horrible idea.

edited 14th May '12 7:02:02 AM by Arha

And Tsundere. This is just a vague mix of all those.

This thing has inbounds, so redirect to Tsundere and call it a day.

Why does this have more than two hundred inbounds? I'd redirect it to Broken Bird personally.

I thought it seemed more like Jerkass Woobie myself.

Heh... the two tropes even have the same character for the image- and the same caption!

edited 14th May '12 7:18:14 AM by Sackett

Google gives me 13,000+ results for "Tsunshun" as a character type with the same/similar definition, one of which includes The Other Wiki. Does that count as "pre-existing term"?

edited 14th May '12 7:26:55 AM by MarqFJA

No. And frankly, Ambiguous Name is the wrong tag. This is not tropeworthy.

edited 14th May '12 7:29:18 AM by lu127

Not really, since prominent links among those 13000 are a user by that name on Youtube, Tumblr, and Deviant Art.

I'd say merge and redirect this, we've already got this trope.

edited 14th May '12 7:30:04 AM by Spark9

Well, the biggest question here is where we want to redirect this to. Tsunshun sounds like it should redirect to Tsundere, I personally think the 'hiding emotional trauma with jerky behavior' sounds like Broken Bird and Sackett says the same, but interprets it a little differently and opts for Jerkass Woobie. I personally think there's enough overlap between the two that it could go either way.

Broken Bird's definition does not involve being a jerkass; it's "coping with a Despair Event Horizon or a Dark and Troubled Past by becoming as cynical, stoic, and/or badass as possible." That's different from Tsunshun.

People use Broken Bird to refer to someone who also copes by being abrasive. It's not that they have to be cynical, stoic and badass, it's that they react to trauma by masking or changing their normal personality to something they feel defends them better.

than this should be a japan-specific subtrope

It doesn't have any differences to merit a subtrope.

You'd have to explain how this is substantially different.

I didn't imply that a Broken Bird had to be all three; the quote clearly requires tha the trope is either one of the three, or any combination thereof, to count as a Broken Bird. Substituting the requirement for anything else automatically takes the "example" out of the trope's purview.

Or the trope is wider than that, or jerky behavior can be interpreted as cynicism. A Broken Bird can be abrasive as their coping method. Anyway, is this a sign that you aren't arguing for keeping Tsunshun anymore?

edited 14th May '12 10:04:56 AM by Arha

Well, if "Tsundere meets Jerkass Woobie and/or Broken Bird" really isn't tropable, then I guess not.

Tsunshun as the page defines it seems a bit different from it's actual meaning. According to the one page I can find on it, it's basically "Harsh towards others, but depressed and lonely when alone."

And right now, it's used exclusively on a single character the word was made to describe.

Isn't that basically what the descriptions says?

edited 14th May '12 12:14:14 PM by abk0100

Well... maybe it can be differentiated enough to be a subtrope or something. Although I think it's really close to Jerkass Woobie, just with more focus on how the Jerkass Woobie feels, as opposed to how the audience feels.

I do think it needs a different name. Also, several of the examples don't fit.

Most important to me though is that it never went through YKTTW, if it had, these problems would have been resolved before launch.

Something that just occurred to me: Jerkass Woobie (and other Woobie tropes) are Subjective Tropes, which forms a problem when we consider that this trope is not subjective. Do we have objective forms of them?

No, we don't need an objective form of a woobie snowclone. It's already misused enough as is.