Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

Besides, these two didn't hurt anyone. For the most part they were obedient.

edited 3rd May '16 6:35:53 AM by LSBK

That always bugged me.

These were the dragons that didn't do anything wrong.

Maybe that's why D's court were so chill about unchaining them.

Dany: Breaker of Chains.

Tyrion: Unlocker of chains

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

I understood it as a safety precaution but just leaving them down there, seemingly indefinitely, was a bad move.

Really was.

Those two got locked up down there as political ploy, to show "fine, no threat of dragons eating children." Even though Dany knew they were no threat, it was done to show how she's listening to the people.

At this point, that is not what they need. The people need to be reminded that their ruler is still the mother of dragons. That's more important than the soft influence of saying "fine, we locked up our dragons, happy?"

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So. Yeah. Good, solid episode. Helped they didn't go to Dorne, though I wouldn't have minded someone getting a raven saying "by the way. Dorne burned to the ground. Everyone died. Especially the Sand Snakes. Obara still didn't win a fight."

Two major issues, though.

1: The Wildlings' ridiculously perfect timing. I mean, jesus. It wouldn't be so bad but Brienne's even more ridiculously perfect Big Damn Heroes moment last week left me a bit less forgiving.

2: Ramsey's coup. As someone said earlier, the coup gains weight by involving actually important characters, but coming fresh off the heels of another stupid coup by a bastard last week and immediately before another coup undercut it. And the sheer level of Stupid Evil involved is just mindboggling. He just does whatever the most shock-value-est thing possible and gets away with it. Killing his father in front of one of his bannermen? Idiocy. Feeding the Lady of the Castle and his own half-brother to the dogs? Kiiiiiiiiiiiiinda should raise a few red flags. But I'm sure that'll be glossed over because he's Ramsey and actions don't have consequences for him.

Otherwise, great episode. I... actually liked the stuff in the Iron Islands. This was a new, odd feeling. I'm glad they brought Jon Snow back already, I figured they'd drag their feet on this one even though no one thought he'd stay dead. Oh, and Frankenmountain was excellent. So much.

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I can let the bit with his father slide but I don't really see why he went with the dogs instead of just stabbing them, or hell, just poisoning them like he said happened with Roose.

That bothered me more than anything else. I still think the term Villain Sue is ridiculous, but the term Mary Sue and all of it's variants have basically lost all meaning so that's no surprise.

I'd agree, but I really can't think of a more appropriate word. Even Invincible Villain doesn't seem to cover it, because he's not just invincible, he's lucky as hell.

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Eh, I don't have a problem with most of the things people complain about with him so I don't think it fits.

I actually do think Ramsay counts as a sue because as this article notes he is an embodiment of the shock-value that some believe is what defines Game of Thrones. So he becomes this character who is this frat-boy stand-in who can do all kinds of horrible nasty things and still command attention.

Bear in mind that Show!Ramsay has a lot more original elements. He went from appearing in 2 out of 5 books in one particular character's arc to becoming a villain who is even bigger than Tywin Lannister (after all Tywin wasn't so invincible that he needed a grand battle and massive team-up to even mount a real challenge to him) and who is on the hit list of many characters. He's also a good deal prettier and more palatable than the book character which might be bizarre to some considering how violent on-screen Ramsay is but it's undeniably true.

As for why Villain Sue works...well there is something about a power fantasy of being a villain. It's part of the reason why people tend to root for gangsters. As the screenwriter Ben Hecht said when he was asked why he wrote many gangster movies, "I like writing characters who are allowed to get laid, curse and talk smack to their parents." I think the showrunners find Ramsay appealing because he's living the power fantasy of being a high lord, he can torture/maim/mutilate and go unpunished. This power fantasy of a lord is a subject of literature, the works of Marquis de Sade dealt with it all the time. So when they depict Ramsay's cruelty, they are enacting some of their ego trip fantasies. This in a way kind of mirrors Ramsay himself, because being a bastard his idea of power comes from the peasant's idea of "How Lord could act, and can act, and sometimes do act" rather than the feudal system of honor and responsibility and obligations that even Tywin respects. Ramsay's cruelty makes sense because he's living a power fantasy, and the showrunners extend Ramsay that attention because they identify with that power fantasy. That extends to Sansa's rape too, I'd argue. I guess many of them thought that the Contractual Purity of the role, and the put-on-the-pedestal nature of her story made her boring, and they kind of wanted to bring her down a notch. The whole staging and build-up to that rape is incredibly nasty and mean-spirited, and almost spitefully misogynist.

I think it was partially inspired by Joffrey's death. The writers wanted to have a similar kind of Hate Sink so they increased Ramsey's importance to compensate.

Unlike the previous seasons, Ramsay's successes his time seem to announce his downfall over the S6 story arc. He fails his most important mission (capturing Sansa), and while his coup gives him power, it also removes Roose's invaluable savviness from the equation. Roose who always was incredibly aware of what he could and could not do - I think Ramsay might have a few more successes in the next episodes (so as to build drama up), but those should be offset by his utter craziness.

While dumb luck always favored him, the show never hid the fact that his father was the brains of the operation. And you can tell many this about the series, but something that comes up constantly is that you need to understand the rules to play the game, or you will lose.

Honestly, if anyone "deserves" a karmic, graphic, satisfying death, it's Ramsay. If he has to be lucky for a couple more episodes to reach it, so be it.

Raped by White Walkers. Or dragons. Or both.

Understated, but Ramsay is now Warden and Lord Paramount of the North. Of course, Cersei had sent Littlefinger as proxy Lord Paramount of the Vale and Warden of the East to war against them and get them in line.

Hmm... Where in the realm isn't in some state of revolt or war?

In conflict:

• The Wall
  • Mutiny fallout
  • The threat of the White Walkers
• The North
  • Ramsay intends to war against the Wall to solidify his rule
  • If Ramsay wars against the wall, several Northern houses may revolt
  • The Vale is sent to war against the North
• The Iron Islands
  • About to undergo a Kingsmoot, to determine whether or not to continue warring
• The Vale
  • About to war against the North
  • Lttlefinger holds the power of the region, and chaos is a laddah...
• The Riverlands
  • The Blackfish, the last known Stark loyalist, holds Riverrun, which was given to Walder Frey for the Red Wedding, and is still in rebellion (so, civil war)
• The Crownlands
  • The Crown intends to respond to the aggression of the Faith Militant
• The Reach
  • Margaery and Cersei's issues aside, the Tyrells can't be happy with the Faith Militant
• Dorne
  • A completed coup and growing rebellion against the crown

Safe?

• The Westerlands
  • Lannister rule
  • Peace?
  • Also flat broke.
• The Stormlands
  • Tommen is the last known member of House Baratheon, but otherwise the region seems to be loyal to the crown

So... the two lands that married to make the crown are the only parts of the realm not in conflict, but they have their own foundational issues

Hell, even in Essos:

• Mereen - Harpy insurrection
• Yunkai, Qarth - lost to the Masters again

edited 3rd May '16 8:12:04 AM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

That's exactly why I'm almost positive his death will be an anticlimactic aside.

Like his strike force attacks Castle Black and just gets swatted aside by Wun Wun and no one even bothers to report it.

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Actually, most of the major lords in the Stormland are likely dead, slain at the Blackwater, or outside Winterfell, with pretty much the entire Stormland fighting force.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

The Reach is probably the best place to live in Westeros right now. Despite Margaery's problems, no one challenges the Tyrells, the House is still reasonably strong, they have a lot to eat...meanwhile, House Baratheon all but disappeared, so the Stormlands should be about to revolt. The Westerlands are similar to the Reach with less food and a Great House that lost both of its strategists.

However, both Reach and Westerlands are easy Greyjoy targets...

... so? It's the Greyjoys.

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The Reach is in for funtimes soon enough. Sam is coming to town...and his father is there. When House Tyrell finally falls, it will be the rise of the Tarlys, because nothing embodies Meet the New Boss then shifting syllables and vowells from light stress to strong stress.

I actually don't think Karma matters in the case of Ramsay...I mean the damage is done. Even if Ramsay dies...it will take a man coming back from the dead, an alliance of Wildlngs and Northerners, a Red Priestess, Sansa and Littlefinger to take him down. That is incredibly flattering to his ego. It would make him second only to the White Walkers in terms of human threat.

And then Ramsay will become the host of the White Walkers and an apprentice of the supposed Night's King.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Ramsay usurps power from the Night's King and becomes the Night's God and the Biggest Bad of them all.

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Ramsay trips, hits his head, and dies.

Because no one would see that coming.

Ceterum censeo Morbillivirum esse eradicandum.

Ramsay raids the Night's Watch, kills Jon again, captures Sansa, flays the Onion Knight and seduces Melisandre.

The Night's King approaches and sees Ramsay atop the Wall . He cancels his invasion. Ramsay saved Westeros.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

I did. My serious prediction is that he doesn't get the epic karmic death he deserves, he gets a random off-handed death that no one even notices.

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"Actually, most of the major lords in the Stormland are likely dead, slain at the Blackwater, or outside Winterfell, with pretty much the entire Stormland fighting force."

Or were reconciled to the Iron Throne. In the books, which, admittedly, are basically only a vague inspiration to the show, but still, many of the lords captured after Blackwater swore fealty to Joffrey and later Tommen. I doubt the show is going to ever have that detail, given the increasingly reductionist narrative over the past two seasons.

edited 3rd May '16 1:53:15 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

How is that bad for him? Like, it's not like he has a thing for wanting to go out in a blaze of glory, that sounds more like the Ironborn's thing. A Karmic Death would be more for the audience than him, not doing so isn't somehow a punishment to him. Well, besides the dying part.

edited 3rd May '16 1:53:48 PM by LSBK

Yeah I foresee Jon just stabbing him in the heart and he dies within seconds

The only satisfying thing about it will be that he's finally out of the story.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."