Sengoku Rance - P5 only

In the first recorded form of the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale, the prince raped her, she gave birth while still asleep and only woke up when her baby sucked the splinter out of her finger. Later versions bowdlerised this into her waking from true love's first kiss.

You're misrepresenting the game, jarkill. If the message of the game was 'Rape is totally awesome' then the villain's characterization would make no sense. You're also exaggerating the main character, though I'll admit right now he's a complete ass. Discar summed up both of those points better than I probably would have though.

Rance is not raped unless you send him to duel that gay demon.

And then you went and mentioned Daidouji and Kojika, which is the point you started actually making things up. I don't know how old the former is, but she's definitely at least a teen. The latter is laughed away when she tries to seduce Rance for his help in her project.

edited 9th May '12 5:50:17 AM by Arha

Post contains spoilers for SR, sorry!

Sorry if that's the case, Arha. I'd appreciate you pointing out where I'm wrong, because it's been some time. Not sure I understand the point about the villains characterization. And the reason for that is, well, I found myself hating him just a tad more than the MC... and sometimes slightly less.

Had a response to my points about the protagonist and the gay rape scene thing, but I've decided that they're just tangential rants that don't need to be here, and my post is long enough as it is. I'm not trying to ignore you here, it's just that I feel this kind of discussion on the merits of the characters personality, etc isn't exactly that important considering what we're here to discuss

IIRC, I never claimed that the game says they're underaged (IIRC, I said that it doesn't say that - looking back, I used girl instead of women when quoting, which was a failure on my part, but given it was with "20 year old" I don't think it matters). I... never actually made anything up here (other than that horrible mistake - girl should be woman, I didn't use copy and paste for my quote).

This is just from what I remember - I am quoting the first site I found the images at there. Daidouji is tagged as loli on the site I linked (scroll down, view tags - it's one of three tags, iirc), and Kojika is described as being a 20 year old woman having the body of a child on the site I linked, Alicewiki. And, uh, that's basically all she's described as.

This isn't me making shit up, this is what the very first results I could find for good pictures of the characters returned (and hell, compare the sprite sizes in combat if you can find them, too). And I'm not sure whether "actually older than they look" is a valid exception to the rule. If it is, then bam, no issue at all here and we can move on. Great. If not, it may need a closer look - but trust me, I think it'd be as ridiculous as you do if it somehow gets in trouble because of pedophilia of all things. Bah.

And yes, it's laughed at - and as I said, Rance is one of the the last things I'd accuse of pedo-pandering because of its very obvious anti-pedophile attitude - but I'd like to remind you that the latter is laughed away, yes, but there ends up being a h-scene between them anyway (I think. It's been some time - I imagine you might remember this better and I really don't want to screw up like before with Cleo, so mind stating whether there is or isn't one for me?) that I would very much presume was designed to titillating (...I don't actually remember it though, so yeah).

Personally, I think there is a snowballs chance in hell of Rance being considered pedo, and I think I said as much, feeling for implying that I even thought it was possible.

"Sengoku Rance, from my point of view, is in no way pedo-pandering, at all, so that argument can be dropped IN MY OPINION."

My opinion, again. I'm just saying this because I feel that it needs to be brought up, less than because I think Rance should be banned for pedo. I'm playing devils advocate, here, and pointing out it MIGHT be an issue. If it's not that's fantastic and we can all move on. Personally? Accusing it of pedophilia is a laughable claim, but these aren't my standards it's being judged by when it comes to something like that, so all I can do is bring it up and present my opinion - that it's not pedobait.

And honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if you consider me to be that kind of jackass that is deliberately being a troll and trying to get things banned that shouldn't be. I'm not, but there's nothing I can really say to convince you, unfortunately.

If I'm misrepresenting here, I'd appreciate it if you'd present your side and where I'm wrong.

I'm sorry if you think I'm making things up, but I'm honestly just trying to present objective facts layered with my opinion on them, and I think at some points I get the two confused. But Daidouji being labeled/tagged as a loli on the site I linked is a fact, and the wiki itself describing her as in her 20's with a child's body is a fact.

I even specifically stated that the game puts them at being properly aged and they only appear visually underaged, so I've no idea how I'm misrepresenting this. How, exactly, am I misrepresenting this?

I can understand you being angry at me for seemingly trying to accuse Rance of all things for being pedopandering material, but please understand I'm not actually doing that - I'm just pointing out the content is there.

Just because by my opinion something is fit for TV Tropes doesn't mean it is, and vice versa. I can't just decide to completely ignore Daidouji, etc just because I, personally, think that the entire idea of accusing Rance of pedobait is absurd any more than I should be allowed to deliberately not point them out so as to reduce the chances of it getting banned because I like it.

There's been a lot of stuff banned that I'd prefer not to be banned, but I'm not the guy who sets standards here, and I'll do my best to abide by any that TV Tropes sets while I'm here. I don't think SR should be banned for pedo content, personally, but nor do I think I can just completely ignore the presence of such content and let it just float past unnoticed.

The purpose of this thread is to give feedback - not just opinions, but actual evidence and details of the game, and I can't help but think that this sort of thing (possible pedocontent) should be brought to the attention of whoever it is wants to look at it so they can dismiss it (or, to be honest, not going to happen in this case IMO, get deleted for it), rather than dismissing it myself as trivial and unimportant. I'm not the guy who gets to decide that.

In the same way that you view me as misrepresenting the facts by claiming Daidouji and co as pedobait, I can effectively view you as misrepresenting by not bringing it up when it does have potential to be an issue. Neither of us is wrong or right here, and that's how this is staying - the panel is going to decide whether this content is a problem, and I'm just bringing it to their attention.

For what it's worth? Sure, I hope they'll vote no to this being removed for pedopandering (if it is even considered an issue) - I might want to see the game removed, but I don't want to see it removed for the wrong reasons, and if that's the alternative I'd honestly prefer it to stay despite my hatred. But my preferences are irrelevant, here. It is what it is what it is, and I don't get to decide what stays and what goes, nor do I make the final decision on what is considering pedophilia and what isn't.

...My firefox just crashed while I was going through editing, so I'm going to post this for now and head on off. Sigh, I wonder what horribly phrased statement I've made that makes me look like a complete nutter this time.

The point about the villain's characterization was that if rape wasn't portrayed as bad then what does he do that's really evil that we have an actual investment in? No, he has a little girl raped offscreen and does other squicky rape things that I don't want to get into and we are supposed to hate him for it. Anything else is just kind of generic villain stuff. Demons, murder etc.

Kojika does indeed look like a child while being twenty. Rance doesn't care about her age, he cares that she doesn't look old enough for his tastes and doesn't want anything to do with her. The part about making things up is the implication that he goes after her. He doesn't. He goes after Daidouji, but she's not underaged nor does she look it apart from the cutesy idol getup. To put it bluntly, she has boobs, and that's kind of a no go on characters that are called lolis. So she isn't one.

There's an h scene with Daidouji and technically there's one with Kojika, but only because Rance is so incredibly drunk that he sees her as actually looking twenty. Well, looking within his strike zone, at least, which is not pedo area. We never see a naked little girl there. Point being that while that sounds weird, it cannot actually be pedo pandering if she's of legal age and is never shown in a fanservicey/sexual manner while actually looking underaged.

Also, this is just a request, but please don't claim you're only playing devil's advocate when you're clearly trying to get the article cut. And please note that I didn't call you a troll, I only stated that you are hiding behind that defense, which is personally irritating. Implying that I am accusing you of that is also not appreciated. And I also don't like the claim that I'm trying to hide information like Daidouji when she's not a child and doesn't look like one or Kojika when we never see a naked little girl. Why would I bring that stuff up?

edited 9th May '12 8:07:32 AM by Arha

Question: how similar is Sengoku Rance's content to that of the Rance 2 remake? I ask cause the latter is the only game in the franchise I know about in detail, from reading a series of (possibly NSFW) posts on the game here, and if the two games approaches are at all similar, then... : /

edited 9th May '12 8:49:34 AM by DoKnowButchie

Rance is still a huge ass but is prone to being somewhat nicer on occasion. Gameplay is better and plot is better, though it could hardly be worse than it was in Rance 2.

O_O

...Wait, there's a "conscience" stat? Huh.

edited 9th May '12 9:48:18 AM by Raidouthe21st

From what I recall, no, not really. The game wasn't very fun so I only got about halfway through. Rance 2 is probably a matter for another thread, however.

The way I see it, the villain isn't supposed to be hated for raping people. He's supposed to be hated for raping his own daughter in an attempt to make her pregnant while at the same time torturing her for fun, and he's supposed to be hated for having Kou gang-raped and (attempted) killed. Both of these things are worse than rape, yes, but the implication just felt like to me that Rance's rape is okay because he honestly doesn't see it as a wrong or something, and he's just like that (things like this really are said in the game, if I recall - but my memory is shoddy and my testimony suspect)

I wasn't implying that Rance goes after her - I was implying that the player deliberately goes after her, and get's an explicit h-scene with pedo content. Just because the character doesn't think or do something means diddly squat when the player can direct them to do it, if that makes sense. I was annoyed at your drunk defense because I read it as that it was okay because the character had ic justification for doing it, on the same level as "Oh, they're 700 years old or a robot or they were mistaken and etc". I honestly forgot about her being aged up by the drunk vision in the h-scene, and I'll immediately retract any and all accusations of it being explicit pedo content - I honestly though it was, since I knew she had a h-scene and knew she's effectively a loli from memory, but when the actual content viewed by the player is aged up that makes a huge difference.

I actually see Daidouji as a loli. Maybe my memory is bad, maybe we have different opinions on what that constitutes. I admit I'm probably wrong, however, and I admit I saw your argument here as partially saying that it was okay because the game said she was of age despite the presentation (see 700 year old / robot thing).

You're correct, of course, about Kojiko. That was my mistake and I apologise - I really didn't recall that the h-scene has her aged up by a plot device (by drinking). There's a world of difference between the game presenting a graphically explicit h-scene designed to be titillating presenting a child, with ridiculous excuses like "Oh, the protagonist is drunk so it's okay" and presenting an adult, and I honestly believed this case to be of the former, not the latter. A bit of idiocy on my part, here, not checking my facts and I apologise for it.

I actually meant that I was playing devils advocate in terms of it being accused of pedo-pandering, not in terms of it being cut. From the moment I brought it up I was very clear that I didn't consider Rance pedo-pandering, and I never intended to actually suggest that it was by misrepresenting it. An honest mistake, and again, I'm sorry about that - I honestly assumed it would be dismissed regardless because it's a ridiculous claim (albeit one I felt should be brought up anyway just so that it can be dismissed, rather than ignored.

The trolling thing was because I misinterpreted you as saying I was misrepresenting Rance as saying I was deliberately misrepresenting Rance for the purposes of getting it cut, when I'm actually just being a twit who doesn't have his facts right, again.

Honestly didn't know about the Kojika not having a true underaged h-scene thing, and I never intended to imply that you were trying to hide it, only that the main reason I was pointing out was because it needed to be said (because I thought it DID have explicit underaged content for the purposes of titillating), and not that I honestly believed Rance had pedo-pandering - it doesn't, as I stated very clearly, but I thought if it did have a explicit, graphic underaged content (which as it happens, it doesn't, whoops. Assuming Arha is right about Daidouji not being considered underaged, which seems like a fairly rational assumption).

Sorry about this, again. A few mistakes and misinterpretations on my part. I never seriously intended for Sengoku Rance of all things to be cut (for pedo pandering, not for it's other content), and the misrepresentation is an honest mistake. I'm still "ehhhhh" on Daidouji being underaged, but it's clear that I was horribly, horribly wrong in terms of Kojika, and I'm dreadfully sorry about that.

Yeah, Rance isn't Pedopendering in the least but it's creepy rape porn.

This is all I'm going to say on the matter, I want Rance cut like Gor, for it's rape fetishism and porn at it's finest/worst/whatever. I once saw a porn free version of it on youtube and while it seemed like it had a deep strategy game engine in it, from the large amount cut out of its story, it was obvious most of the plot revolved around getting to see and unlocking sex scenes. It's a mostly excuse plot game. Conqueror JAPAN to rape women, then fight demons to rape women.

It depends really if you think actual gameplay that is meant to be fun in and of itself (as opposed to a visual novel), is enough to merit it's inclusion on here even if it's story seems to be purely for titillation. I lean on no, because this is a site meant to document story tropes.

edited 10th May '12 12:18:57 AM by TheManInBlack

Though I'm not a fan of either, I'd say we should use "clean and lock" as the dispensation for both Gor and Sengoku Rance because both are actually quite similar: there's enough plot to just barely squeak by being pure Excuse Plot and there are some elements that are interesting and tropeable, even if the content is, in most of our opinions, beyond disgusting.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that anything short of pedo or obvious porno (e.g. Debbie Does Dallas, Urutsukodoji, Barely Legal White Anal Girls 12 being examples of obvious porno) should stay. We're not in the business of moralizing or squicking out about fetishism or even outright disgusting content, and for as much as Gor may be Snark Bait and some of the worst writing ever, and as much as Sengoku Rance is triggery and creepy, that we're having such discussion over them (with sincere points on both sides) IMO makes them tropeable enough to get a solution for both other than KILL IT WITH FIRE.

This isn't meant to be a defense, but I feel compelled to point out that we don't consider gameplay tropes to be of any lesser importance to setting, plot, and character tropes, just like camera tropes aren't less important.

I agree with the clean and lock, although maybe the games should be looked at seperately. How old is that catgirl mook in Rance 2 btw?

Okay, this is really off-topic here and right into Flame Bait territory. Stick to Rance please, not what generally constitutes rape and how we should call it. I thumped the original post too.

edited 10th May '12 11:58:57 AM by lu127

I agree the games should be looked at separately.

The Miller test is the United States Supreme Court's test for determining whether speech or expression can be labeled obscene, in which case it is not protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be prohibited.It has three parts:

Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,

Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

The work is considered obscene only if all three conditions are satisfied.

I believe when we take Sengoku Rance as a whole, it is a game with deep plot, story, and gameplay value. The fact that Sengoku Rance page in tvtropes is so huge proves it. It is a game that many people love and enjoy. Yes, the game has many different hentai scenes in it, but I don't think they constitute the meaning of the work as a whole and I personally believe that the game appeals to the community of standards as well.

edited 11th May '12 2:38:48 PM by iuyiop

A huge page on TV Tropes proves nothing. Endless Conflict, an unpublished "novel" by a troper here, has one of the bigger tropes pages on the site, but that certainly doesn't establish that horrible drivel's value. Sometimes Trope Overdosed is a bad thing. In fact, it often is.

Actually, never mind. I've said all I needed to on this subject. It's up to the two remaining panel members to make their decisions at this point.

edited 11th May '12 2:44:12 PM by Arha

At this point I think everybody's said all that needs to be said on this. Once the two who haven't voted get around to it, this will be resolved.

Cleaning the page now. I also put it on my watchlist. I'll send a holler when I've finished.

edited 12th May '12 8:26:37 AM by Arha

Has this received three votes one way or the other? I can't find it on the voting tool...