The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

Even as a fan of the VN, damning images aside, I won't have a sleepless night if the page gets cut or anything. I just want you guys to do whatever you feel is the best course of action.

Apologies for the double-post, but a very different thought here: I'm of two minds on The Story Of O, and I'm not sure what to do.

On the one hand, I've read a decent chunk of it, and... it's pornography. Stylish, innovative pornography, for sure, but there is no getting around the fact that it is basically an extended masochistic fantasy with some interesting feminist subtext.

On the other hand, that subtext. That's important. And that style and innovation. This was a extremely influential work, and still is, not to mention a very subversive one even now.

So what do I even do here?

Having read O, ...I'm torn much the same way. The subtext is there, yes, but it's 1) fairly easy to skim over and 2) subtle enough that it's also easy to argue it's only present to people who want it to be there.

Having looked at the various pages, my opinion is that the Literature page is OK, the Trivia and YMMV pages should be cut, and the Film page should be made tropeless ( there's only one trope left on it now after I just cut the ones that were misuse, editorializing, or ZC Es, anyway.)

edited 10th Dec '16 8:15:34 PM by Madrugada

How come we have to dump the YMMV and Trivia pages?

I believe that when cutting a work, all subpages should be cut as well as the main page for pretty much the same reason the main page is being cut in the first place - because the work violates our guidelines and thus shouldn't be on the wiki.

No, people are proposing to leave the main work page and cutting the subpages. Which is exactly why I flagged it again - we don't do tropeless work pages anymore. That might have been acceptable in 2012, but nowadays the standards for stub work pages are much stricter.

Oh, I see.

I could make a page on what nukige/nakige/etc mean. Should these definitions all go on one page?

Probably yes. And since I found Anime Fan Speak, one might use that page to add the terms to.

I think it would be more Visual Novel Fan Speak because VNs have a lot of terminology that don't apply to anime at all. I mean, the 'ge' in nukige and about a dozen other terms means game.

I've written down eleven terms that I can think of so far. Going to see if I can think of more that should be on the list.

Could group it together as "japanese-derived fanspeak".

@Septimus: Okay then. So subpages with only 1-2 tropes should just be axed then because they're too small?

No, what I am asking is that there should not be any work pages without tropes listed, preferably. Whether the way to achieve that is by (re)adding trope lists or cutting the work pages in question is not so important.

Given what Septimus said, should we revisit F.A.T.A.L. (no trope examples) while we're at it?

@Septimus: Madrugada was saying the YMMV and Trivia Pages for Story of O should be cut and I was wondering why because both of those pages have tropes on them.

@Adannor: Weebsprache? :P

I think that making The Story of O tropeless is precisely the wrong thing to do. If the work doesn't fit our standards, we chop it. If it does, then we fulfill the site's mission and trope the work.

Going back to first principles, I'd advocate keeping it and troping it, because it's not "pure porn" if we can talk about that subtext (particularly if that subtext includes tropes!). For the same reason, FATAL should just be axed outright.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:08:50 PM by Ramidel

If the decision is to add some tropes to F.A.T.A.L. to justify its existence, then here's a link to the last version of the page that still had examples...there should be plenty of non-sexually themed examples that could be added.

EDIT: Here's the original discussion thread for reference.

edited 11th Dec '16 5:14:06 PM by Willbyr

I think the number of non-sexual examples on that page is enough to justify keeping FATAL. It's good for a laugh at any rate.

4chan/tg/ has done a few testing combats in it to see the fails of the system beyond all the rape so that can get some more tropes.

Regarding Phoenix of the Wasteland, I will quote myself from earlier post about why I flagged it, that way people who want to read what concerned me can jump right to it instead of having to wade through the entire work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah that did get cut. As I recall the original example it was something along the lines of torturing a 6 year old filly in front of her uncle, then having them both gang raped, and then using a pear of anguish on her. All in an example declaring the big bad a complete monster.

I braved it and looked it up. The scene in question did happen in chapter 18. I doubt it counts for much but it is pretty clearly played for shock and horror and not meant to be arousing in the least. At least I hope it wasn't meant to be.

edited 11th Dec '16 9:13:52 PM by Daefaroth

Here's a basic draft. It's probably missing a lot of terms but I don't know if anyone here can really add to it. I thought about adding a note regarding the content policy under the nukige and lolige entries, but I decided that as a simple definitions page it's not really necessary.

Regarding FATAL, do we consider the inclusion of infant characters (with full mechanical support) to be pedopandering material?

Pretty much. I don't see how you'd view it otherwise. It's one thing to have mechanics for handling child characters in general and another to have mechanics for gruesomely violating them (assuming that's what you're discussing).

edited 12th Dec '16 2:20:57 PM by Fighteer

Ah right, the big point was the system giving orifice size modifiers for child characters on the same page as describing the consequences of going over the size.

(Size going into negatives is still pretty hilarious in a jaded way.)