Batman General Discussion

I don't know, the first few pages hooked me. Of course, that's because they were a flashforward with Batman on a motorcycle, but still.

Comic Book Legends Revealed: Was the Joker in Joker based on Heath Ledger?

I'm glad they've had him using the Bat-robots more. Bruce is supposed to be incredibly smart, and when you see him charging Darkseid on foot you can't help but think "what a dumbass."

The Batman versus Darkseid fight Tomasi/Gleason's Batman and Robin might be my favorite comic book fight ever. Having Bruce go toe-to-toe with the biggest bad guy in the multiverse wearing armor forged by the combined powers of the entire Justice League, to bring his son back to life, is probably the coolest thing to happen in the New 52.

https://www.google.com/search?q=darkseid+hellbat&biw=1278&bih=993&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsi_Sopp7NAhXJ8z4KHYAkAJkQ_AUIBigB

Just look at that Gleason/Gray/Kalisz art.

edited 10th Jun '16 1:30:02 PM by Cuber

I don't disagree. I liked Luthor's little comment to Bruce about them being members of the same club while adjusting it for Bruce.

edited 10th Jun '16 1:53:18 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I realize that this might sound like an odd thing to ask, but, how many times has Damien Wayne appeared shirtless? There, I said it

So I was catching a rerun of The Dark Knight on TV last night. Since I've seen enough reruns of Batman Begins on TV and DVD to remember a lot of details, I found myself somewhat disappointed with the second Nolan film compared to the first. While I could see the reason behind Ledger's Joker's popular praise, I felt that the changing of actresses for Rachel and the much more subdued soundtrack did much to wound my viewing experience. Not that I think that Maggie didn't do her best mind you, but I couldn't help but believe that Katie Holmes' softer and higher-pitched voice would have made the monologue of Rachel's rejection letter more poignant. Plus, I thought that it would've made a good Brick Joke to have Maggie's Rachel to carry a taser just as Holmes' did; I'd love to see Ledger's Joker react to that.

Regarding the soundtrack, I was impressed with the visuals of the police convoy chase but was virtually begging for the heart-pounding music that made the car cash in Begins so memorable. Unlike the the latter scene's orchestra reaching a crescendo as Rachel begins to slip away to the fear toxin, the lack of any music whatsoever even as Batman ejects from the destroyed Tumbler in the Batpod, taking down Joker's garbage truck erstwhile, meant that the convoy chase failed to give me the same sense of pressure and desperate urgency characteristic of the Begins car chase.

Finally, there's a the issue (for me, at least) of the antagonists of both films. While Nolan's Joker by himself made a fine opposing force for the heroes, I missed how Batman Begins spent a large degree of time conveying to the audience the motivations and aspirations of the League of Shadows' mooks, as Bruce initially was training to be one. Thus during the first film's finale, we can at least infer why Ra's mooks would be so loyal to him as he poisons a city. On the other hand, the Joker Clan is giving little motivation beyond the typical motivations of criminals. As a result, while the Joker's schemes throughout The Dark Knight are undoubtedly devious, they reach somewhat beyond my Willing Suspension of Disbelief in how I kept wondering how Joker managed to maintain a steady reserve of loyal mooks willing to commit to such projects.

Batman Begins car chase:

The Dark Knight batpod chase:

edited 13th Jun '16 5:33:14 PM by FluffyMcChicken

If you liked Begins better than TDK you'll probably like Dark Knight Rises, as it's more of a sequel for Begins than for the second movie.

I'm sick and tired of them insisting the Joker being legitimately insane, especially Grant Morrison who treats his craziness as a superpower that can't be overwhelmed(even by the Green Martian, who's ludicrously powerful in telepathy). He's consistently shown to not only tell good and evil apart, but have a certain level of reasoning that doesn't come off as if he's a Lovecraftian horror who causes madness. He's an unpredictable psychopath, not Nyarlathotep

Hell it was even pointed out in the Nolan movies that some of the criminals faked mental illness to avoid going to prison.

Which is also stupid. Ever been to an asylum? You don't get out. The films had something of an excuse in that the guy running it was on the mob payroll, but as a general tactic, pretending that you are crazy is a bad idea.

edited 14th Jun '16 8:26:09 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Yup. Pleading insanity is, well, insane. They'll put you on drugs forever. You'd be better off dead.

And you'll never get out because no psychiatrist wants to declare you sane and then watch you go off the rails. Not to mention that one shrink can't let you out; a panel of them have to agree to let you go.

That's not something that generally happens in real life, for very obvious reasons. That's just Miller getting up on his anti-psychiatry soapbox. Among other things.

Yeah, that's always struck me as weird. People have speculated that Charles Manson deliberately fabricated a lot of his bizarre behavior, but it did him little good as he's in prison anyhow. I blame One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest for getting people to think crooks successfully claim to be nuts in order to deliberately get themselves committed rather than serve a prison sentence.

I mean, hell, there have been cases where people's families (or in some cases the authorities) have had them committed in order to control them, but they do that for the very reason that once committed, it's very, very hard for someone to get released.

Dan Slott's Arkham Asylum miniseries showed why it's an awful idea to feign insanity to be thrown into an asylum. I guess it worked out for White in the end, but only because he lucked out with the whole demon assault. I think Alan Grant once did a story dealing with the same overall premise before that as well.

As for Joker's insanity, it's just an exaggerated Comic Book Insanity, not fitting any real world type, but definitely insanity. Just feigning insanity to the point Joker does is already insanity in its own right.

Depending on the story, he's shown a range of symptoms from being genuinely convinced he and Batman are the only two real people in the world to hearing voices to, well, the logics behind the laughing fish plan. Often when he's alone and talking to himself, when there's no reason to think he's trying to fool others. Besides, when briefly forced into sanity by external forces (like the Martian Manhunter's telepathy or immersion in the Lazarus Pits), he's clearly experienced actual change into a sedate, remorse wrecked shell of a man, but still temporarily sane and rational.

People have speculated that Charles Manson deliberately fabricated a lot of his bizarre behavior, but it did him little good as he's in prison anyhow.

Didn't he do it to escape death penalty?

edited 14th Jun '16 5:01:17 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Obviously. The Dark Knight Returns has not aged well. But I thought it was a very hilarious fictional case, where the patient you vouch for not only completely proves you wrong, but murders you in the process.

Then again, this psychiatrist in particular is a Straw Man of epic proportions, a one-note plot device to put the Joker on the scene. In particular, his utter inability to read the Joker's body language and his stubborn intent to dominate and overbear one of the most prideful men ever is simply astounding... it's just amazing that such an incompetent guy would be assigned to handle a guy that's worse than Hannibal Lecter.

The funniest part is that, underneath the Post Modern Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness, he seems to make a few half-valid points here and there, and then leaps into idiocy. "Batman causes supervillains just by being there", kinda true, sometimes literally -> "Batman is responsible for the villains' actions, and they aren't!" Or "Batman inspires hooligan vigilantes!", true, -> "Batman makes them hooligan vigilantes."

Miller takes the easy path of taking valid counterpoints to his heroes' more problematic traits, and having them mangled in the most stupid way possible by tiresome morons, and then feels free to ignore those problems entirely from then on. It's a special case of The War on Straw.

edited 15th Jun '16 6:09:50 AM by TheHandle

Have Harley Quinn and the Joker's Daughter ever met?

For that matter, has Duela Dent ever been in the same room as the Joker? I can't find a single picture.

I think Harley and the current Joker's Daughter have served together in the Suicide Squad. IIRC Harley eventually kicked her ass while giving her a rant on the Joker.

Edit: Just read Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade, and it's far better than I'd been expecting. The dialogue obviously was almost entirely written by Azzarello rather than Miller, other than a few pages here and there. The ending sort of falls flat though.

edited 23rd Jun '16 8:47:50 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

You can tell the dialogue is written by someone else because there are now far fewer instances of Department of Redundancy Department.

"Stupid punk. What's he think he's doing? Stupid punk. Stupid undisciplined punk. Stupid goddamned undisciplined punk!"

edited 23rd Jun '16 9:21:28 PM by comicwriter

I especially liked how tastefully Poison Ivy was handled. I had been expecting for her sexuality to be displayed exaggeratedly, but she's actually sexy without being overblown.

I'm not too pleased on how stereotypically Ghetto Croc was, but at least it was nice to see him actually holding his own in fights for once instead of being a punching bag.

edited 24th Jun '16 6:26:42 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

Yeah, Croc too often just get's Worfed

Looks like someone figured out who the strange hidden villain of King's first arc might be.◊

Hugo? Well he hasn't been used in a while, outside of the show.