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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 12501 Wildcard, Thu, 27th Jun '13 4:21:40 PM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
I know, the first part was just a joke about how much I seemed to know about The Bible.
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
 12502 Silasw, Thu, 27th Jun '13 4:23:38 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
O, I thought you were implying that Starship had terrible Bible research skills. tongue
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
 12503 Knightof Lsama, Thu, 27th Jun '13 4:49:06 PM from The Sea of Chaos
I'd kind of like it if you would stop calling it silly. Billions of people believe in it. I'd probably be villified if I called nonreligious people silly.

Short answer: No. (The long answer is basically no with a lot of expletives added for emphasis). Two reasons for this.

The first is that neither popularity of a belief nor the sincerity with which those beliefs are held provide any guarantee against those beliefs being 'silly'. (Though silly is not the word I'd choose. I favour absurd and on occasions, farcical). Actually I would argue that greater the number of believers and/or the greater the sincerity actually increases the inherent absurdity of the situation.

The second is that by attempting to put belief beyond criticism (or even just certain types of criticism and mockery is a form of criticism), it is a de facto attempt to privilege those beliefs. Either a specific belief in particular or just belief over non-belief in general.

And speaking as a non-believer, I wouldn't bat an eyelid at silly. Silly is tame compared to some of the other stuff that gets bandied about. Worst case, I'd embrace the silliness to get a cheap shot in.

God could have caused it all to happen in 6 days, with the whole omnipotence and all.

You do realise that you just called God a liar don't you? (Basically, by implying that Earth/the Universe was created with the appearance of age in an attempt to reconcile the account in Genesis with the scientific evidence, that in turn implies that the act of creation itself was one big deception, which in turn destroys the entire basis of all three Abrahamic faiths, since if God has deceived humanity once, there's no reason to assume that he's telling the truth in the Torah/Bible/Koran).
Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
 12504 Ringsea, Thu, 27th Jun '13 4:57:17 PM from Fly-Over Country,USA Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
The Face of Mercy
Wow. I never said you can't disagree and debate with parts of Christianity or anything even close to that, calling it "absurd" or "silly" is different. It's INCREDIBLY pointless to go out and call people's beliefs absurd, especially since nobody can prove it one way or the other. It's like me saying that liking a purple is silly, when there is no objective proof or anything even close to a reason to NOT like purple except for my own subjective reasons. You can be Athiestic all you want, but thats not an excuse just to insult followers.

With the "billions of followers" point, that was me saying that several people could be offended by somebody calling their beliefs silly. You're not reading that right if you took it as" We are the majority, your opinion is irrelevent."

I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with religion and debating it, but it's a whole 'nother idea to call the idea of believing in a God silly. I don't call Democrats silly for being Democrats, after all, and nobody should.

"You do realise that you just called God a liar don't you? (Basically, by implying that Earth/the Universe was created with the appearance of age in an attempt to reconcile the account in Genesis with the scientific evidence, that in turn implies that the act of creation itself was one big deception, which in turn destroys the entire basis of all three Abrahamic faiths, since if God has deceived humanity once, there's no reason to assume that he's telling the truth in the Torah/Bible/Koran)."

I wasn't even being serious. Point was that he COULD have done it.

This is sort of off-topic >.>

edited 27th Jun '13 5:02:49 PM by Ringsea

The most edgy person on the Internet.
 12505 Silasw, Thu, 27th Jun '13 5:43:05 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
We have a theology thread, maybe take it there?
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
 12506 Knightof Lsama, Thu, 27th Jun '13 9:45:42 PM from The Sea of Chaos
I'll post here because it I believe that the general principles I am discussing have a direct impact on how LGBT rights and religion intersect and I will attempt to use illustrate how to keep it at least partly on topic.

Wow. I never said you can't disagree and debate with parts of Christianity or anything even close to that, calling it "absurd" or "silly" is different.

No it's not. Functionally what it's doing is placing artificial and arbitrary limits on the discourse. As a thought exercise instead of a religion, pick another sort of philosophical or ethical system. Would you say that Stoicism, Epicurianism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Juche or what have you can't be called absurd or silly (if you think so)? Or what about the more fringe religious beliefs that are generally considered Acceptable Targets like the Raelians or Scientology? Was South Park wrong for mocking them? And if not, what sets mainstream religious beliefs apart from them that renders them immune to similar treatment.

It's INCREDIBLY pointless to go out and call people's beliefs absurd

I can only disagree with this in the strongest possible terms. One of the key weapons used against groups like the Westboro Baptist Church is pointing out the absurdity of their position. God hates Shrimp was a popular counter to their extreme focus on the parts of Leviticus that are commonly read as condemning homosexuality.

Also, as a more general rule, calling the Song of Solomon ancient Hebrew porn, or Ecclesiastes ancient Hebrew emo, generally raises few hackles than calling out the more troubling passages of Judges and Kings and is a valuable tool to making a further point about how the Bible (or Torah and Tanakh if you're Jewish) are perhaps not the best guides to life in the 21st Century.

since nobody can prove it one way or the other.

Okay, that's just a stinking, steaming pile of bovine excrement. There are dozens of religious beliefs that have been proven wrong over the centuries. A young earth (the best you can hope for is creation with the appearance of age), geocentrism and others. To loop this back on topic, the increasing prevalence of legal, same sex marriages proves that there is nothing inherently wrong with same-sex relations and any religiously based prohibitions against it are purely arbitrary (or at best based on extremely outdated concepts).

It's like me saying that liking a purple is silly, when there is no objective proof or anything even close to a reason to NOT like purple except for my own subjective reasons.

Except that there have been many cases where religious beliefs have been proved objectively wrong. Silly or absurd might be somewhat subjective reactions (everyone's sense of humour is different after all), but by your own logic, that makes them just as a valid a reaction.

With the "billions of followers" point, that was me saying that several people could be offended by somebody calling their beliefs silly. You're not reading that right if you took it as" We are the majority, your opinion is irrelevent."

No, I took it as an argumentum ad populum. Just saying that a lot of people believe something (and might be offended) does not in of itself grant those beliefs validity.

It also illustrates a major problem with religious beliefs in general. It encourages people to make their beliefs part of their identity. I'm not insulting them, I'm insulting the belief system that they adhere to, but because people treat those beliefs as part of their self-identity they get all worked up because they perceive it as an attack on them. It's part of why people get so worked up about marriage equality when ultimately it has no effect on them whatsoever.

I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with religion and debating it, but it's a whole 'nother idea to call the idea of believing in a God silly. [[quoteblock]]

I'll repeat myself here just for the sake of emphasis. No, it's not. It's a logical extension criticism and critique, even if couched in somewhat subjective language.

[[quoteblock]]I don't call Democrats silly for being Democrats, after all, and nobody should.

And again, no. For one thing, it's a prime example of confusing ideology and identity like I mentioned before. And being a Democrat just for being a Democrat is in fact silly and I have no compunctions about saying so. If you have a reason for being a Democrat, then it stops being silly, at least inherently. It could still be silly depending on the exact reason.

I wasn't even being serious. Point was that he COULD have done it.

And I'm pointing out that it's bad arguement because it's works on a superficial argument and Fridge Logic results in it undermining the point it was trying to defend in the first place.

edited 27th Jun '13 9:46:36 PM by KnightofLsama

Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
 12507 Ringsea, Thu, 27th Jun '13 11:16:33 PM from Fly-Over Country,USA Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
The Face of Mercy
[up]Can we take this to Theology or P Ms?'I don't think this is on topic. It is religious, but that is not alone enough to be relevent. Neither of us would be taking about LGBT stuff if we kept arguing this here.

edited 27th Jun '13 11:28:47 PM by Ringsea

The most edgy person on the Internet.
 12508 Knightof Lsama, Thu, 27th Jun '13 11:56:39 PM from The Sea of Chaos
[up] If you can find it, you can resurrect the theology thread to continue if you want. Though as I said, a lot of these issues intersect with LGBT Rights, at least tangentially.
Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
 12509 Captain Katsura, Fri, 28th Jun '13 3:26:44 AM from    Poland   
Decoy
No way YHWH is omnipotent because it can be stopped by iron chariots. Just saying.
My President is Funny Valentine.
This one??
All I know is, my gut says maybe.
 12511 Elfive, Fri, 28th Jun '13 4:26:36 AM from London
 12512 Radical Taoist, Fri, 28th Jun '13 12:45:12 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Thank you K of L. Nothing is sacred and everything can be silly. I would much rather believers be free to call my atheism silly than for anyone to think that any belief must be taken seriously at all times. To bring it back on topic, how far would the LGBT rights movement have gotten without humour? (George Takei, I'm looking at you.)
 12513 Knightof Lsama, Fri, 28th Jun '13 5:50:03 PM from The Sea of Chaos
(George Takei, I'm looking at you.)

May he truly live long and prosper!
Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
 12514 Captain Katsura, Sat, 29th Jun '13 3:57:14 AM from    Poland   
Decoy
He became my favorite Star Trek actor after Sulu went bonkers in one ep and ran around with rapier.
My President is Funny Valentine.
NCC - 1701
[up] Ah, the good old days.
It was an honor
 12516 Wildcard, Tue, 2nd Jul '13 5:31:05 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
How old are you that you can refer to the 1960s as "The Good Old days"?tongue
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
NCC - 1701
[up] Reruns bro. [lol]
It was an honor
 12518 Wildcard, Wed, 3rd Jul '13 8:41:09 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
So your not in your fifties eh?
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
 12519 Blue Ninja 0, Thu, 4th Jul '13 6:55:02 AM from The Middle of Nowhere Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Plotting my Escape
The various Not Always sites have some awesome stories.
Judge Not, Lest Ye Get Jumped SECONDARY SCHOOL | UK | BIGOTRY, GENIUS, RELIGION, STAFF, STUDENTS, TEACHERS

(Our tutor is a Bible-thumping bigot in an all-girls school. She’s just caught two friends of mine making out when she came early to register us and is laying into them. Unbeknownst to the couple, we’ve laid plans for such an event.)

Tutor: “This is a disgrace! It’s an abomination, a sin!”

Friend #1: “It’s none of your business what we do!”

Friend #2: “It’s not against any rules!”

Tutor: “It’s against God’s Law! Leviticus—”

Friend #3: “AND I’m gonna stop ya right there.” *grins* “You’ve got a tattoo. Leviticus 19:28, among others.”

Tutor: “That’s not—”

Friend #4: “Not to mention Timothy 2:9, saying not to wear gold and pearls.” *gestures to tutor’s jewelry*

Tutor: “Well that’s—”

Friend #5: “Oh, and Leviticus 19:19; no clothes of blended fibers which we all know you’re wearing.”

Friend #6: “Are you planning on killing me because I don’t share your faith? I’m Hindu. Deuteronomy, 13:6-10.”

Friend #7: “What about—”

Tutor: “Shut up! SHUT UP!”

Me: “Didn’t your God have some pretty strict rules regarding who was allowed to start throwing stones?”

Tutor: *furious* “GOD D*** IT!”

Me: “Thou shalt not take the Lord’s name in—”

Tutor: “JUST SHUT UP!”
I'm going to get killed becuase some guy saw me walk out of a Subway eating a foot long shotgun - Mousa
[up][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome]
Going Forth!
 12521 Gabrael, Thu, 4th Jul '13 7:12:44 AM from My musings Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
Zombie Polar Bears!
My hope for the future generation is restored.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx
 12522 Iaculus, Thu, 4th Jul '13 7:49:51 AM from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Kind of a pity that Not Always is at least 75% shitthatdidn'thappen.txt, with that anecdote looking like a prime example.
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
 12523 optimusjamie, Thu, 4th Jul '13 8:05:09 AM from Mega-City One Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Still, at least people know what to do.
 12524 Morgikit, Fri, 5th Jul '13 6:00:08 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Euo will do!
[up]He's the head of the CofE... it's practically in the job description to be the Master of the Mixed Message. tongue
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
Total posts: 15,625
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