LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

What really disturbed me the most about Falwell's death was the extremes to which people took the idea of Never Speak Ill of the Dead. Christian leaders and politicians from all over the country were praising the man, calling him a good Christian, a man of God, and so on. Either they were just being polite, or they meant what they said, and genuinely thought Falwell was a decent and good person. At least Hitchens stood on his principles and refused to kowtow to the ludicrous idea that just because somebody is dead you can't criticize them. Falwell was a reprehensible lump of human waste and the world is better off without him.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

The church isn't in on it, but Catholics in general are.

edited 31st Jan '13 4:57:18 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

One thing I've learned about the Catholic Church is that there are always plenty of Catholics who disagree with the Church. Just look at all the schisms they've had . And I didn't know about the Chinese, Aztec, and Mayan figures. That's certainly interesting.

boop

There's also Erzulie, the loa spirit of love, passions, women etc. She's often seen as the patron protector of lesbians, and less often Gay Men.

Also, in the Aztecs had a practice of young male nobles taking male lovers from the common citizens, the relationship of which was considered to essentially be marriage.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

The Aztec thing, similar to the practice they had in ancient Greece and Japan?

Also: What is the relationship between Homosexuality and Vodou? Is it generally accepted, or not?

boop

Yeah, but if I remember right the lovers had all the same legal rights as a marriage couple and so on.

Also, Voodoo is a lot like Wicca in the respect that it is extremely heterogeneous, aside from some commonly accepted broad ideals (Voodoo is mostly about balance and the nature of life, good practitioners are houngan priests and dark ones are bokor) it's really up to the individuals.

When I was still a practicing Wiccan I incorporated a lot of Voodoo teachings into my practice, a lot of Neo-Pagans do.

edited 31st Jan '13 6:15:27 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Oh yeah, I forgot to take into account the fact that Vodou is so spread out. And the Aztec thing is very interesting. Not something I've ever really thought about. Thanks for the info.

boop

...ehhhhh. Sebastian as unofficial patron saint for gays is pretty distinctly subculture. Like, I wouldn't quite call it fringe, but it's nowhere near in general.

A lot of Catholics though have unofficial saints for a lot of things the Church doesn't approve of. There's a lot of mysticism in Catholics. My family is Catholic and I'm basing what I'm saying off my experiences with them and their churches.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I never really pledged to any denomination. I still don't. It's part of my belief that a person should read the Bible and not let any particular spin get in the way.

I must say, I question it. Of course I see homosexuality as a sin, so I wouldn't agree with any congregation; any person; who said otherwise. Nor they with me. Of course, that's but one point of disagreement. There are Churches that will grant a divorce outside of infidelity on the one hand; on the other, there are a few that will banish a divorced couple from the congregation. I disagree with both.

But, if that's what the folks following those denominations believe; more power to them. We all have to follow the Scripture as we see it. The only I disagree with is if Churches are switching up are adjusting their beliefs in order to "gain ratings". That's not cool.

For the reasons listed above, I will always be non-denominational.

It was an honor

Sorry Lawyerdude, I have to disagree at least from one angle. You give people a respectful time period after death. You believe and I believe that Falwell was not a good person. But maybe WBC believes that the funerals of the people they picket aren't good people. You still give the families the time they need before you start shitting on the dead bodies.

And if you're really classy, you attack the arguments, not the people, especially after they're dead. Because there's always an open wound with family members that maybe you don't want to rub salt in.

edited 31st Jan '13 8:14:55 PM by Vericrat

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.

Goddamnit, I really hate it when you make sense Vericrat.

It was an honor

Not so. Being conscripted into silence serves no purpose whatsoever. Never Speak Ill of the Dead is a childish concept, because it prevents reasoned debate about peoples' legacy, especially public figures. And the debate was not about Falwell's arguments, it was about Falwell's legacy, which is entirely worthless, serving only to hamper political progress in this country, deny rights to homosexuals, deny rights to women, deny rights to black Americans, and to promote social conservatism. It is not childish to point out that a man who blamed the ACLU, abortionists, and gays for 9/11, who said that AIDS was a divine judgement, who encouraged settlement-building in occupied Palestine, and that God had drawn a "line of distinction" between the races, did a great deal of harm. The harm Jerry Falwell did as a person is immeasurable.

As Hitchens said - "I said these things every day while he was alive; might that not have offended his family then?" He's damn right. There is no obligation to spare the deceased's family's feelings, if it will lead to a misleading public impression of him.

edited 1st Feb '13 4:51:42 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

@shimaspawn

Eh... St. Sebastian's unofficial status as patron saint of gays is well known even in hierarchic circles, though I honestly can't see any connection other than double entendre seen in some paintings (... gay or otherwise, how is being turned into a pincushion supposed to be ...erotic? And wouldn't Sergius and Bacchus make "better", for lack of a better term, saints?). Technically, the closest-to-official saint may be St. Augustine ... "Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet!", or Gerard Manley Hopkins if he ever becomes a saint.

... You wouldn't happen to be speaking of Medjugorje would you?

@ Achaemenid

I'd avoid giving scathing rebukes of the deceased in the direct hearing of any relatives or close friends, that'd be crass. It's one thing to state that a person's life had negative consequences and make that well known, but its another thing to engage in polemics the moment they died. Still, you have a good point, dialectics and dialogue have to continue on even after a person's death.

Thanks, Acham. I think it's massively hypocritical to pretend like a person suddenly should be immune from criticism just because they're dead and gone. And I don't owe people like that or their families anything. Hitchens made that point, too.

Falwell's life proved that you could legitimize the most regressive, hateful, ignorant and bigoted things by playing the "God" card and calling yourself "Reverend". He also spoke ill of the dead; victims of AIDS, of 9/11, of anti-gay violence. A founding principle of the moral majority was preserving racial segregation. Any person with even a modicum of reason, empathy and human dignity should also realize that his life contributed nothing positive whatsoever to humanity. He doesn't get a free pass just because he's a white Christian American.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Well obviously no one here is gonna call an asshole an asshole at the funeral. We don't have any Phelpses in here, I'm sure.

Actually, I think the Westboros did protest at Failwell's funeral. YMMV on whether he deserved an honor previously received by the likes of Coretta Scott King, Mr. Rogers, and countless other American heroes.

edited 1st Feb '13 7:09:43 AM by Morgikit

Misread ignore post.

edited 1st Feb '13 7:10:26 AM by Wildcard

Indeed they did - you can watch it here.

You can also watch Fred Phelps get owned, (posthumously) by George Carlin.

edited 1st Feb '13 7:11:32 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

I like how you worked "social conservatism" and Israeli settlements in there—talk about Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking!

YMMV is all I'm gonna say to that.

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I disagree, but that is beyond this thread, and I apologize for including them in the list, though I stand by the argument. PM me if you want to have that particular debate .

Outside America:

The French parliament has begun a debate expected to last two weeks about gay marriage. Hollande and the socialists have enough parliamentary support to see it through. The UK debates the Marriage (Same-Sex) Couples Bill on Tuesday, with senior Tories split over the bill. The defence minister is reported to have compared equal marriage to incest, though this is unconfirmed.

Getting the bill through both houses of the UK Parliament will be dicey. Its going to be a free vote (as opposed to a whipped vote, where M Ps are told by their parties how to vote and face penalties from them if they disobey). I've already written to my own (Labour) MP expressing support for his plan to back it (though I spend increasingly little time in the UK anyhow, I thought it best to make the effort for this).

Breakdown:

Of a total of 649 sitting UK M Ps:

• 4 are Speaker or Deputy Speakers
• 303 are Tories (offically called the conservatives, their political philosophy is like the Democrats').
• 255 are Labour (like the Democrats, but much more left-wing).
• 57 are Liberal Democrats (like the Democrats, but slightly more left-wing).
• 6 are SNP (like Labour, but believe in Scottish independence).
• 8 are DUP (Protestant social conservatives).
• 4 are Sinn Féin (The Provisional IRA's political wing).
• 3 are Plaid Cymru (Welsh nationalists).
• 3 are SDLP (peaceful Irish nationalists).
• 3 are independents.
• 1 is from the Alliance (a Northern Irish moderate party).
• 1 is from Respect (Dirty Commies cum Islamists).

Now, for the (probable) voting breakdown: The speakers will abstain, as is convention. Sinn Fein won't turn up, because participating requires them to swear allegiance to the British Crown (although the cheeky bastards still claim expenes for doing no work). Between 139 and 200 Tories will vote against, as will all 8 DUP members, 1 of the independents probably will, and at least 8 of the Labour M Ps and at least 1 Lib Dem, a total of 219 at most. Minus the 8 abstentions/non-appearances from the Sinn Fein and speakers, and that leaves 432, a majority, who will vote in favour. Of course, these numbers are based on what has been said publicly - who knows what other M Ps secretly think? The numbers against could be much higher, though they shouldn't be a majority.

The Lords, on the other hand, could well block it - the "other place" is an older house with a preponderance against social progressivism, and it is not inconceivable that a combination of the Bishops, the Tories, the DUP, the UUP (Northern Irish protestant nutcases) and the Crossbenchers might block the bill. If they do, Parliament will have to pass it again next session, and then use the Parliament Act to get it through. Of course, the threat of them doing this might cause the Lords to back down.

edited 1st Feb '13 9:14:28 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Wouldn't this be more appropriate in the Gay Rights thread?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

It's funny. We have discussions in each that should be in the other.

As the Gay Right thread is "Gay Rights and America" I'd say no.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran