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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 5126 Fish 1, Sun, 18th Nov '12 12:09:58 PM from Lovecraft Country
2 Fish
@Ctrooper 2011 Spitzer recanted.

Grey and Grey Morality implies some sort moral/ethical failing on the part of both sides, and I'm interested to hear what you think the pro-gay-marriage side is.

edited 18th Nov '12 12:10:50 PM by Fish1

Indeed.
 5127 Morgikit, Sun, 18th Nov '12 12:35:19 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
In fact, almost everyone I've talked to in Texas, where I'm in, agrees that while there shouldn't be gay marriage period, that gives no excuse to descriminate against gay individuals.

Ah yes, the "homosexuals shouldn't be treated the same as us because (insert stupid reasons here), but that doesn't mean we should pick on them or anything" homophobes. They annoy me even more than Worley and Phelps because apparently you're not allowed to criticize them since they're trying to be nice.

And could we please avoid the "gay cure" thing? The major problem with any kind of "gay cure" is the implication that non-heterosexuality is a disease, or that LGBTs need to be "fixed" somehow, and no amount of good intentions will help you sell that. No one ever talks about "curing" heterosexuality after all, because that's "normal".
Unchanging Avatar.
Actually, banning gay marriage is treating homosexuals the same as us. Just pointing that out.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 5129 shimaspawn, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:06:06 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
No it's not. You are allowed to marry your partner. A gay person is not.

You are allowed to live together in a family only neighbourhood. A gay couple cannot.

You can be at your partner's bedside when they are dying. A gay person cannot.

You get a tax break for declaring your devotion to your partner. A gay person does not.

You are allowed to inherit your partner's things. A gay person is not.

How is that in any way equal?
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Unchanging Avatar.
God, everyone here is on a hair trigger. It's treating everyone the same because they all have the same rights. Everyone has the right to a heterosexual relationship and marriage. Now, you may not think that's fair. But it's still treating everyone the same.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
Princess Ymir's knightess
[up] Do you not understand just what is wrong with this argument? Seriously?

 5132 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:15:05 PM from Castle Geekhaven
[up][up] Yes, and anti-miscegenation laws were perfectly fair because everyone had the right to marry someone of their own race. tongue

edited 18th Nov '12 1:15:12 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 5133 Kostya, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:18:30 PM from Everywhere
The Razruchityel
How is that even a rational argument? Obviously they have that right. Unfortunately that means nothing to them since they aren't attracted to those of the same sex.

 5134 Fish 1, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:22:35 PM from Lovecraft Country
2 Fish
@Ultrayellow At most, one person here is on a "hair trigger". Don't tone troll.
Indeed.
 5135 Inhopelessguy, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:24:06 PM from Birmingham/Coventry, Greater Europe Relationship Status: Less than three
Part of the LIGHTS Army
That argument is slightly wrong. They don't have a right to a heterosexual marriage because they're not heterosexual.

We may suffer (We~) together (may~).

But we (suffer~) all die alone.

Princess Ymir's knightess
Hey, but it could be useful when they just want to marry in order to have all the advantages of marriage. :3

 5137 Carciofus, Sun, 18th Nov '12 1:27:52 PM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
French groups (mostly Catholic ones) protest against gay marriage; turnout "insignificant".

Also, as far as slogans go, "One papa one mama — what else?" was not particularly brilliant, I think...
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

In uffish thought
Ultrayellow: Putting aside sexuality, things are still unequal. A man has the right to marry a woman, but a woman does not have this right. I don't see how this can not be unfair.
Unchanging Avatar.
A woman has the right to marry a man, which a man does not. It's not unequal. It might be unfair, but it's not unequal. It's exactly equal.

Um, yes, plenty of people here are on a hair trigger. The fact that I got such an explosion of reactions from a correction of semantics would seem to prove that.

@Kostya: It's not a rational argument. It's not an argument. It's a correction. If this thread wasn't a bit of an echo chamber, there'd be gay marriage opponents to make that correction. But there aren't , and so I'll do it because it's more interesting and (IMO) more intellectually meaningful than just repeating ourselves.

edited 18th Nov '12 2:20:19 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 5140 Morgikit, Sun, 18th Nov '12 2:22:52 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Actually, banning gay marriage is treating homosexuals the same as us. Just pointing that out.

From a Certain Point of View, right?

God, everyone here is on a hair trigger.

You're right. We should be nicer about our rights being attacked.

 5141 Radical Taoist, Sun, 18th Nov '12 2:27:54 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Yes, Ultrayellow, lesbians and gay men are equally oppressed by the prohibition of gay marriage. That's not the equality we're fighting for.
 5142 drunkscriblerian, Sun, 18th Nov '12 2:59:41 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
  • A man and a woman who love each other and want to get married can do so.
  • A man and a man, or a woman and a woman, who love each other and want to get married cannot.

These two things are not equal. I don't often say this...but you're factually incorrect, Ultrayellow.

men love men, and women love women. It happens, it's a real thing, and haters need to square with it. Show me a reason not to let gays get married that isn't rooted in Scripture or simple fear of the unknown.

edited 18th Nov '12 3:22:27 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
 5143 Fish 1, Sun, 18th Nov '12 3:07:18 PM from Lovecraft Country
2 Fish
An explosion of reactions? At the time you made that post, you had 1 reaction. There is also the fact that the number of reactions does not actually tell you anything about the emotional states of the people making said reactions.
Indeed.
 5144 Hilarity Ensues, Sun, 18th Nov '12 3:12:25 PM from Standing between Sho'Nuff and total supremacy.
On a hair trigger? Actually, I find this thread amusing and somewhat informative. It's like watching an evolution vs creationism debate - albeit with a less out of date topic this time around. You really can learn some things from a creationist, namely why they reject science (and non-fundamentalist religion, for that matter). But, much like the aforementioned subject, this isn't the sort of thing where I seriously expect the other side to come up with some groundbreaking argument after years of presenting repeatedly debunked claims and silly nonsequitors. You can't go into a debate like this with those expectations without quickly losing your patience.

 5145 Silasw, Sun, 18th Nov '12 3:20:39 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
Ultra you haven't had an explosive reaction. A negative one yes, but that's what happens when you try and use semantics as an excuses to deny people their rights. Here let me spin you argument on its head. If no one is being discriminated against when everyone has the right to Mary someone of the opposite gender, then a law making it only legal to many someone of the SAME gender would likewise not be discriminating? To you see how stupid that argument is?
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Mentor
The argument is not factually correct, we've pointed that out, now we can move on.

From a layman's point of view with the catholic church it seems that every sin not in the big ten is eventually relegated to not-really-an-issue eventually. Do you see this happening with homosexuality? Societies views tend to liberalize over time so I can't see the church sticking with this out-dated view if the rest of society has moved on.

Unchanging Avatar.
@Silas: What I mean was that I posted one thing that was out of lockstep with the consensus on this forum, to which 11 tropers posted counterarguments (most of which were based on the assumption that I opposed gay marriage). I don't mean it was an explosive reaction in the sense that people got angry (at least, I hope not), but rather in the sense that it was out of proportion.

@DS: I wouldn't have said that in this case, either, DS. You misunderstood my point, which was a response to an earlier post. My point was that men and women have equal rights here. Everyone has the same, equal set of rights. It's just that those rights are fairer for heterosexual people than homosexual people, because they reflect the desires of heterosexual people. But that doesn't mean people don't have technically equal rights.

And secondly, why do I have to bring you proof that gay marriage is wrong? I don't oppose it. It's not my position. All I did was point out that some people were making claims which I didn't think were correct. You seem primed and ready to have an argument with me that I'm sure you would win, if only I held the position I think you think I do.

@Fish: I reiterate my response to Silas, but add that between my first post and my second post I count seven reactions, as opposed to your count of one.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 5148 Silasw, Sun, 18th Nov '12 4:17:31 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
You're using a very odd definition of equal. By your logic people have equal rights if there's a law saying that you are allowed to steal from black people (after all everyone has the right to steal from black people). Everyone has the equal right to marry someone of the opposite sex, but everyone does not have the equal right to marry the person they love. Either way I don't understand why you're making this argument. It seems to be a pointless argument over semantics that highlights the fact that "equal" is a term that can be twisted simply by changing what you are talking about.

And yes by that definition you did get an explosive reaction, however that's what happens when you an argument about semantics in a topic that is not about semantics.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
 5149 Fish 1, Sun, 18th Nov '12 4:49:12 PM from Lovecraft Country
2 Fish
Am I reading this wrong?

Sun, 18th Nov '12 3:57:17 PM

Actually, banning gay marriage is treating homosexuals the same as us. Just pointing that out.

Sun, 18th Nov '12 4:06:06 PM

No it's not. You are allowed to marry your partner. A gay person is not.

You are allowed to live together in a family only neighbourhood. A gay couple cannot.

You can be at your partner's bedside when they are dying. A gay person cannot.

You get a tax break for declaring your devotion to your partner. A gay person does not.

You are allowed to inherit your partner's things. A gay person is not.

How is that in any way equal?

Sun, 18th Nov '12 4:10:11 PM

God, everyone here is on a hair trigger. It's treating everyone the same because they all have the same rights. Everyone has the right to a heterosexual relationship and marriage. Now, you may not think that's fair. But it's still treating everyone the same.

Unless my monitor is playing tricks on me, you had exactly one response when you accused everyone on the thread of having a hair trigger. The fact that there were eventually seven doesn't erase the fact that you jumped to that conclusion well before it was warranted. Which would also indicate that the only reason you made the initial post was so that you could engage in some hand-wringing about how this thread/forum is a pro-gay rights echo chamber.

What I mean was that I posted one thing that was out of lockstep with the consensus on this forum, to which 11 tropers posted counterarguments.

All I did was point out that some people were making claims which I didn't think were correct. You seem primed and ready to have an argument with me that I'm sure you would win, if only I held the position I think you think I do.

Would you look at that!

edited 18th Nov '12 4:58:18 PM by Fish1

Indeed.
 5150 Karalora, Sun, 18th Nov '12 5:00:49 PM from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
Everyone has the right to a heterosexual relationship and marriage. Now, you may not think that's fair. But it's still treating everyone the same.

Why do people who make this argument never seem to realize that in places where same-sex marriage is legitimized, it becomes available to everyone, not just gay people? Two straight men could get married in the Netherlands.
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