The "Paradise Lost" idea, a.k.a. Mythical Ideal Past

Recently - I believe it was in the "Women Shouldn't Want or Enjoy Sex" thread - someone brought up this Cracked article, 5 Ways Modern Men are Trained to Hate Women. While most of it is just 'woo, let's make some cynical generalisations and snark for the sake of snarking' (a.k.a. your typical Cracked article), it does raise some interesting points. I found Reason #2 particularly intriguing:

This is just one example of a concept which we see all the time, everywhere: the idea of a mythical past when the world was 'perfect' and people were 'free' ('in harmony with nature' is another Stock Phrase used to describe this state). The late Rudy Kousbroek - basically the Dutch Richard Dawkins - once wrote about 'the religious mode of thinking', which he said 'still dominated society, even though there is no longer any relation to a specific religion.' He identified one of its features as

It goes without saying that this idea is very much Older Than Dirt; it's in The Bible. While there are probably few people who literally, consciously believe that Paradise, or something like it, ever actually existed, I think many people still have this idea subconsciously, and that it informs many of our thoughts and actions. We see it in literature, art, philosophy: the idea that once, the world was pure and good and right, but then something - usually some technological development - came along and ruined it.

Has anybody else noticed this? Why is this idea so appealing to human beings? How harmful is it? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

edited 4th Apr '12 2:16:37 AM by MidnightRambler

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...

Preemptive warning: The topic corresponds to the title of the thread, not the Cracked article that served as the inspiration for it. Derails into anything remotely resembling "women oppress men's impulses" will not be tolerated.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

That idea is indeed pervasive, and I might agree that it is part of what one could call "the religious mode of thinking" (although I do not consider this a bad thing, of course, and I am not sure that it is part of all religions)

Ultimately, I believe that it has little to do with temporal precedence or mythical history. Instead, it is based on the intuition that perfection is ontologically antecedent to imperfection, that the current and imperfect world should be thought of as the damaged version of a perfect world, and that our selves are also imperfect versions of some ideal we-as-we-should-be.

In essence, it is the idea that evil is a disease; and it makes no sense to talk of disease expect than in relation to some ideal of health.

I don't really think that this ideal of a "mythical past" is in any particular relation to temporal history. When the ancient Romans talked about the Golden Age of Saturn's reign in which the earth freely gave its fruits to humankind , they were — I think — perfectly aware that there was no trace of such a thing in any history. It was their allegorical way of saying that the earth should give freely its fruits to humankind; and that the fact that it does not is, in some very profound sense, unnatural.

When Hesiod (I'm quoting from Wikipedia) writes that

what he's saying is that sorrow, toil and old age should not be. That men should be able to dwell in ease and peace, and feast beyond the reach of all that is evil. That our current and imperfect state is not in keeping with our innate dignity of human beings.

edited 4th Apr '12 3:12:12 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

isn't this Mythical Past just extension of Nostalgia ?

majority of people view their childhood as happy-perfect condition, and their grandfather complain that condition when they young is even better. So they subconciously extend their idea to humanity itself, that there are time when everything is perfect, then every year is just get worse.

I thought the deal was grandparents complained about everything being harder when they were kids, walking 20 miles to school through four feet of snow and all that?

edited 4th Apr '12 5:13:31 AM by RavenWilder

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

but they also claim everything is cheaper, people are more moral, youth cause less trouble and society function better. Physical hardship actually often appear in Ideal Past, Greece admire Spartan, civilized man admire Noble Savage. it implied closeness to nature, manliness, courage and resilience.

I disagree with your assessment that its usually technology that is used for blame. Usually its social movements. I see this often with feminism and with Christianity, that pre-feminist or pagan societies were 'better' or more ideal. (Maybe its because I involve myself a lot in religious or gender-based discussions). The Biblical version is a time before "sin" or general evil, and most Christian denominations vary on how literal that perfection is.

I think its just a natural consequence of blaming one of the modern 'ills' (percieved or otherwise) for modern problems—you have to then make up a time before that 'ill' came into being, and that it was somehow "better" for it. Its rarely something assigned to a bit of technology.

edited 4th Apr '12 5:50:09 PM by Tiph

Yeah, this is basically Nostalgia Filter taken Up To Eleven.

Social movements are often blamed, it's true. But I've also heard countless "spiritual" hacks who blame technology and science. This often goes hand in hand with a horrible Straw Vulcan depiction of the rationalist mindset associated with science and technology.

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...

Actually, sub-Saharan myths and legends are kind of steeped in a different take on the same topic: the past might have been better, but we (via the First People) already screwed it up beyond repair, and there's no going back to it. The rest of time is hopefully us not going against the powers-that-be and making them angry enough to stomp us worse. Inventing things and making waves by seeking power or change beyond what we have is what is a bad idea, as this will call attention to us.

In short: the world is pretty crap and has been for thousands of years, but, if you're not careful, it will be worse. Contrast with the pure-form 'the past was fantastic and we should try to emulate the best of it' view... it's a little different, no?

And, people wonder why parts of Africa almost seem to refuse to try to advance technologically, let alone socially...

edited 5th Apr '12 5:03:44 AM by Euodiachloris