Needs Help: Rock Paper Scissors

I have one issue with this article, and one only. If I get a little support I'll make the fix quickly and we can lock this and move on.

This paragraph:

"The use of rock-paper-scissors to resolve disputes or apportion chores (rather than as a game) is mostly a Japanese Media Trope, but it has recently been commuting over to Western audiences as well, where it may be Played for Laughs. The game is also known, incidentally, as "jan-ken-pon" in Japan and South America, "kawi-bawi-bo" in Korea, "rochambeau" in the west, "pierre-papier-ciseaux" or "chifoumi" in France, and "Ching-Chang-Wallah" in parts of England."

What? It's been "commuting over to Western audiences" from Japan? Are you fucking kidding me? I've played Rock-Paper-Scissors since I was a lad, and that was before I knew that there was anything more to Japan besides samurai, a target for the atomic bomb, and chopsticks. I looked the game up on Wikipedia, and it kinda makes it sound like it started out in China and Japan, but provides no real source for that. Maybe there's more history in The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide, available on Amazon, but I ain't buying it just to check a fact.

I want to rewrite that entire paragraph to remove the part about it being "mostly a Japanese Media trope." The idea is clearly false and typical of the Anime-centric stuff that you see too much around here.

edited 3rd Apr '12 7:51:15 AM by Martello

The game dates back to the time of the Chinese Han Dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE), In the 18th century these games were popular in Japan. and became world wide only in the 20th century. (and the current name is derived from the Japanese name not the Chinese name for it)

edited 3rd Apr '12 7:55:13 AM by Raso

Yeah, that's what Wikipedia said. That's fine, but it's still not "mostly a Japanese Media trope." That part needs to go.

It may date back to Asia, so I'm okay with leaving that, but "it's mostly a Japanese Media Trope" is blatantly untrue. I'd nuke it.

I believe this is an independant evolution. Rock Paper Scissors and Ja Ken Pon are seperate but can be merged for the purpose of this wiki. I like to think it was western first but I am biased.

I do agree the fourth paragraph needs a bit of a rewrite but not much of one.

(man my sig and avy is so appropriate for this thread lawl [1])

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:05:51 AM by Raso

I'd like to remove the "it originated in Asia" thing too, because I'm not sure it did. The Wikipedia article isn't clear on it, and it's not like Wikipedia is a rock-solid source anyway. Other than that we have Raso saying it originated there, but then again I'm not sure Raso wouldn't argue that Japan invented manned flight.

Does anyone else have any other opinions, or can I go ahead with this?

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:56:34 AM by Martello

And even if Wikipedia were a rock-solid source, an academic paper would cover the matter more reliably.

Sorry.

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:46:43 AM by Routerie

..... that was rather uncalled for ><

And I have been looking it up (seriously) the earliest reccord of the actual game as it exists now is 19th century japan but itself is based on various Fist games going back to at least 200 BC China. (some of those Fist games spread to europe too)

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:50:26 AM by Raso

Raso, it was just friendly ball-busting - I figured the "winking smiley" would have made that clear.

What's the source? If you have a good one, I'd be more than willing to support keeping the history bit in there.

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:50:11 AM by Martello

Well I am getting 50 different versions to this.... bah.

@Martello: The part of the article you quote specifies that rock-paper-scissors as a means of dispute resolution came from Japanese media. I'm still skeptical of the claim, but I'm having a harder time thinking of counter-examples to disprove it.

The one thing that comes to mind is a Dave Barry article from the 90s where he jokes about Senate debates devolving into rock-paper-scissors matches.

Actually, if you check out the Wikipedia article on the subject you'll see that it has been used as a dispute resolution in the States, including to settle a court case, absurdly enough. Either way, I think it's a bullshit claim and needs to go.

So there's one known example of RPS used for dispute resolution in the West, in Real Life. How often have you seen Western fiction use RPS for dispute resolution, or for "loser does the dishes"? Me personally, I can't think of a single case. It crops up all the time in manga though, so I think it's valid to say that "The use of rock-paper-scissors to resolve disputes or apportion chores (rather than as a game) is mostly a Japanese Media Trope" until such point as people come up with a reasonable list of Western examples of that use.

And so far you have presented no evidence that the game itself did not originate in Asia, versus at least some historical evidence that it did, so I don't really see why you want to delete that bit.

Even in Anime there are a lot of Senseless Jankenpon playing, like Smile Precure this is part of her Transformation Sequence (which changes every episode.) It gets lampshaded but even the enemy plays along next episode and loses because he was anticipating Stock Footage. [1]◊ [2]◊ [3]◊

But there are a lot of uses to this, chores, Combat, who goes first (instead of a coin flip) etc.

Why the need to ask how often you can remember a western example of the trope? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there is a page somewhere on the Internet that lists where this trope is used. Looking at that, the examples aren't primarily Japanese.

edited 3rd Apr '12 11:25:43 AM by Feather7603

Because he was talking about Japanese examples? I was supporting the general trope that there isnt a big difference between Jan-Ken-Pon and Rock–Paper–Scissors besides how it is actually played..

I can see a soft split between Serious Business vs Gags but that's it.

NINJA EDITED AGAIN....

EDIT: the little use I think is this is rather innocuous in Japanese works unless its a gag.

edited 3rd Apr '12 11:35:39 AM by Raso

These look pretty western to me.

"How often have you seen Western fiction use RPS..." Doesn't look like he's talking about Japanese examples to me.

The point is that it's irrelevant to ask someone specific how many examples he can remember.

edited 3rd Apr '12 11:45:02 AM by Feather7603

I may have misread there ><.

I thought as much. You're usually smarter than that.

I opened an Image Picking thread for this to try and get a real example of someone playing the game.

Anyway enough screw ups from me.

@16: That was what is known in the trade as a "rhetorical question", the point being to prompt people to compare the relative frequency of RPS as a means of resolving disputes or picking chores in Western fiction versus Japanese fiction. lu127 has given some relevant Western examples in #18. I still maintain that this specific use of RPS is far more common in Japanese media.

I maintain that the trope page speaks against that. I considered the rhetorical nature of the question, but my conclusion was that it didn't matter.

edited 3rd Apr '12 12:24:10 PM by Feather7603

Well, all of the Minds Eye Theater games use RPS as their sole means of conflict resolution. There was some sitcom I was watching with my brother last night that used it. I think it was My Name Is Earl, but I'm not positive. We were only half watching. I just remember the game because it sparked off a conversation about LARP. I'm also pretty sure I've seen it on Friends

edited 3rd Apr '12 12:37:48 PM by shimaspawn