Series/ Ben 10 Omniverse

We'd rather it made sens in the first place.

Exactly. If you have to retcon the series in a way that alters the very fabric of reality to justify it, then you should seriously reconsider your ideas before that. It's cheap, lazy writing, no matter how much techobabble about "time" and "alternate universes" they toss in.

This is some basic stuff that every writer should know.

For the record, I also hated Kevin's two turns and the whole Osmosian retcon. It cheapens the characters (Kevin goes from interesting villain to boring Big Guy while Ben and Gwen come off as idiots for trusting him out of the blue and forgetting all his crimes) solely because the writers couldn't be bothered to just create a new guy to fill in the team. If you're going to do something dramatic, either commit to it or don't bother.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:01:13 PM by Geostomp

Kev had an entire episode devoted to his redemption in the Null Void. And of course they wouldn't blame him for "Ultimate Kevin" he was CRAZY and only became that way because he SAVED THE UNIVERSE. Even when they were going to kill him it was more of an Ol' Yeller moment than any personal enmity. Hell the Ultimate Kevin arc was a high point for UA.

As for Omniverse, I'll just keep geeking out over how cool Blox is.

@Sijo Multiverses, What Ifs, Alternate Timelines and "The Future is Always changing" are a sign of laziness? Tell that to, I dont know, every comic hero ever. I was actually talking about Dwayne Mc Duffie ( the late comic legend) who wrote Ben 10,000 Returns and introduced the Concept of the Cross Time multiverse(which seemed to take cues from DC's old Hypertime) MOA then worked with it and added the Null Void as dimensional nexus in the Heroes United Crossover with Gen Rex. It's not the hard an idea to grasp. Gwen 10 was obviously AU, The first film's inconstancies was explained within one episode. so the only real mess up was the first series multiple endings. A Comic book Multiverse was really the best way to handle such things and has precedence in the genre that both the shows and the writers come from.

edited 8th Sep '12 6:50:57 PM by LushCity

Alternate Universes are an old (older than cartoons or comics, in fact) trope, and have been used *very well* in many occasions. But, like all tropes, it can be misused too. Sometimes it's just a writer's cheap way out, as mentioned above. Also, the implications of a multiverse (why it happens, what it means to its characters, etc) are VERY rarely dealt with well. Personally, I don't need an in-universe explanation for why, say, the Live Action Ben-10 isn't like the animated one- its obviously not meant to be the same series. But when you start throwing time travel and such into your stories, you can't complain if the fans later point fingers at inconsistencies you didn't handle well.

Alright, that's a fair statement. But how exactly was the concept of alternate universes handled poorly in Ben 10, relative to other series? The people in charge established that Race Against Time, Goodbye and Good Riddance, and the future in Ben 10,000 aren't canon to the main timeline, making Secret of the Omnitrix the true finale to the original series. That makes logical sense, given the fact that the Ben 10,000 future was probably changed just by present Ben going there and finding out about it, and Goodbye and Good Riddance was presented in the same "What-If Comic Book" format as Gwen 10.

Granted, "Ben 10,000 Returns" from Ultimate Alien is an example of time travel being done fairly poorly, as it implied Ben would still have the Ultimatrix, but that's really the only example.

Even the time travel in "The Forge of Creation" was done pretty well, in my opinion. Paradox explicitly said the younger Ben would remember it vaguely as if it were a dream he had, meaning it'll have no impact on the future. Additionally, this time-traveling episode is revealed to be the reason why Ben trusted Kevin to help them at the beginning of Alien Force in the first place thanks to his subconscious memories, meaning that the time-travelling in that episode doesn't create any plot holes but in fact actually resolves at least one.

Not really. It only serves to introduce an unnecessarily complicated "explanation" that raises more questions than it answers. You may enjoy it personally, it it still smacks of poor writing and weak retcons. A writer should make sure that their work makes sense from the beginning not hastily slap together something much later in an attempt to make up for it.

If it were some grand plan from the beginning with hints strewn throughout the series, it might work, but it clearly wasn't. It's just bad decisions stemming from multiple writer visions that don't mesh well. The fact that you have to go through so many hoops to justify it only proves that point.

Again, you're not really explaining what makes it so "unnecessarily complicated". And I'm not jumping through hoops, I'm using things that have already been stated in the show combined with simple logic to make a point.

As early as the original series, between Gwen 10, Race Against Time, Ben 10,000, and Goodbye and Good Riddance they already had episodes that couldn't fit together in a logical progression. Just the existence of these episodes/movies suggests alternate timelines, it should have been apparent without them coming out and saying it.

edited 11th Sep '12 10:47:59 AM by Khfan429

To be fair, writers don't always have the luxury of planning ahead; in fact often they're hired to continue someone else's work, and have to patch things up anyway. However, in Ben 10 the writing (presumably) is done by the Man of Action Team themselves, or at least, by writers under their direction, so there's little excuse for it. Quite honestly, they come across as "we want to try something new now, and just say that's what we intended all along." Which is fair, I guess, just not to everybody's liking.

Other examples (within this series) of this kind of short-sighted thinking attitude have been with the suggestions that humans are considered a delicacy in the galaxy (cannibalism) or the marriages between humans and barely-humanoid aliens (bestiality). Maybe they thought the audience wouldn't get them, but then again, these ARE comic book veterans, so I doubt it.

I see your points. I'm not trying to argue the point that everyone should like the idea of alternate universes, just the point that the idea's been there ever since the second season or whenever Gwen 10 came up, and it really isn't poorly done when you look at it (especially not compared to how other series have been handling time travel lately...).

On your other points, though... technically aliens eating humans isn't cannibalism. Cannibalism only exists when individuals of a species eat members of the same species. For example, humans eating chimpanzees is an uncomfortable idea, yeah, but it isn't cannibalism.

Also, none of the alien/human hybrids we've seen are the result of bestiality. Bestiality occurs from having sex with animals, and all of the alien parents in this series are from sentient species. It's essentially the same as an inter-racial couple, only one of the races has superpowers.

Ignroing the contradiction in his post (It's not besialty becasue they arent animals, it's not canibalism because they are not human) I agree that Sijo is putting his trademark nerosisis on something not meant to be seen in that manner.

And even so, Every AU/ Time Travel/ Multiverse story has been a highlight of teh series it was in so I dont see why you are so peeved Sijo.

Please give data that the time travel is the hilight of every series.

You cant objectively prove quality. I could probably dig up ratings but that wouldnt prove much.

Oh come on, you know what I meant. The correct term might have been Anthropofagia, but would MOST people know what I meant by that? The point is, the writers carelessly established that humans get eaten by aliens in the B10 universe, Nightmare Fuel implications be damned. Similarly, I was far from the only one revolted at the notion of humans mating with blobs, sentient or otherwise.

And let's not start getting personal about this, OK? Anybody who finds my posts neurotic is welcome not to read them.

edited 12th Sep '12 7:42:09 PM by Sijo

For the record, I also hated Kevin's two turns and the whole Osmosian retcon. It cheapens the characters (Kevin goes from interesting villain to boring Big Guy while Ben and Gwen come off as idiots for trusting him out of the blue and forgetting all his crimes) solely because the writers couldn't be bothered to just create a new guy to fill in the team. If you're going to do something dramatic, either commit to it or don't bother.

Word. Just word. I agree 100%. Kevin in AF/UA was so dissimilar from how he was in the original that it really felt like a new character who the writers were trying to pass up as Kevin, only waaay later bothering to try and connect him to his original characterization....and, whatwith the whole Osmosian angle, failing miserably at doing it in a satisfying way, as now it canonly leather pants him, absolving him of all his past sociopathy.

Kev had an entire episode devoted to his redemption in the Null Void.

Yes, and a pretty bad one, at that. They wait until NOW to tell this story, when it's something you and the characters should know toward the START of Kevin's Heel–Face Turn in order to believe it, and afterwards it's never referenced again! It's also really contrived that if that Q'rall guy was so important to Kevin, that he waited for 6 years until he was insane to attempt going back to that prison and achieving any vengeance?

Hell the Ultimate Kevin arc was a high point for UA.

No, it's ending was the Jump the Shark point for UA. No consequences for Ben, Gwen and Kevin, after all that angst and buildup that things would change? No regret from any of them of what they did, they just immediately forgive each other and go right back to the show's Status Quo of being a buddy-buddy team, never to speak of this incident again? It was that point where I gave up all hope for UA being decent.

I now refer you to this post where I say what I think is wrong with Kevin's character in the sequels.

However, in Ben 10 the writing (presumably) is done by the Man of Action Team themselves, or at least, by writers under their direction, so there's little excuse for it.

Man of Action only worked on the original series. Is that what you're referring to?

edited 12th Sep '12 8:00:53 PM by ManwiththePlan

What would you have them do? Kevin was crazy and killing people, Ben needed to put him down, Gwen was blinded by love. Why would it spiral into some third rate fanfiction angst pit after his sanity was back and you know there was NO REASON for the angst. I suppose Kev might have had a smidge of guilt about any innocents he killed, but since we dont see any and the power flowed back ( as seen with the Andromeda 5) it'd just be angst for the sake of angst. My point was that the Ultimate Kevin arc was one of the most intense and potent stories in the Universe, and was very well done.

I also dont see how you being squicked out by a very basic sci-fi trope is any fault of the writers.

Why would it spiral into some third rate fanfiction angst pit after his sanity was back and you know there was NO REASON for the angst.

No reason? Ben had phsyically hurt Gwen and wanted to kill Kevin far beyond what is healthy. Gwen had to put up with Ben and then got hurt and energy-drained by Kevin. Kevin....does it need to be said? UA has angst about alot of unnecessary things; this is the one time angst would be perfectly appropriate...and there's none. It would NOT be angst for the sake of angst; it'd be angst because they all did things they can't take back, things that ought to break up their team. I would have loved to see that, to see the show's status quo change like the intensity of the arc kept seeming to promise, to see Ben, Gwen, and Kevin all go their seperate ways and have their own adventures. It'd be much better than all the shit that followed.

My point was that the Ultimate Kevin arc was one of the most intense and potent stories in the Universe, and was very well done.

To you, it was. To me, it was not. It was better than what came after, but that's not saying much.

edited 12th Sep '12 8:58:59 PM by ManwiththePlan

Kevin was not himself, Ben needed to kill him and Gwen didn't. It's a simple as if you had to put down a rabid dog but then somehow he got a cure. It's not as if you would blame him for what he did under the influence, especially since the only reason he was like that in the first place was because he saved the whole of the universe in the first place. Pumping up drama there would just make the whole team seem like unlikeable jerks.

Ignoring it all to get back to status quo makes the writers seem lazy and the characters cheaper for it. Ultimate Kevin would have been good if the writers committed to it, but they just did it as an attempt to link back to when Kevin was a better character in hopes to justify decisions the writers had made years prior to shove him into this new role. Afterwards, there were no real consequences for anyone.

Retroactive justifications for massive character changes can work, but they simply didn't do it right here.

Yeah, I didn't like the way they handled Kevin in AF/UA either.

If they had established that absorbing energy made him lose control and that he'd met someone who had helped him gain control of his anger earlier (like at some point during season 1 or even 2 of Alien Force rather than waiting until season 1 of Ultimate Alien) it would have been believable.

As it stands, it feels like the only reason they made those justifications in the first place was so they'd have an excuse to turn him evil again, rather than give him any sort of Character Development.

Kevin was not himself

Again a reason I hate the arc and Osmosian angle, everything bad he does can be chalked down to "he's not himself", meaning he has to redeem himself for absolutely nothing, making him an extremely boring character. I reiterate, Kevin is one of the worst written Heel Face Turned Anti-Hero Atoners I've ever seen. There is absolutely nothing logical or compelling about him.

Ben needed to kill him.

Er, no he didn't. He could have imprisoned him in the Null Void, or that big-ass Plumber prison they sent Albedo to in his first appearance. Ben's obsessive need to kill Kevin came out of left-field. Had the writers made Kevin do something to really make Ben feel that he had to be killed, I'd accept it. But they didn't, because again, they don't want Kevin to have to be held accountable for anything and actually earn his redemption.

It's not as if you would blame him for what he did under the influence

Yes, you can blame someone for what they do under drug or alcohol influence. Most of the time, that lowers inhibitions and makes them do or say things they wouldn't normally, but actually think and feel inside. The way I see it, Kevin wasn't "not himself", he was "liberated" by insanity to do and say the things he's wanted to deep down but couldn't due to sanity and morality keeping them in check. This didn't just come from nowhere.

Also, while Gwen can forgive Kevin, why actually stay his girlfriend after he admitted he's always found her energy irresistable, that this may be the main reason he's drawn to her, and then he proceeds to energy-rape her while talking like Darkstar? Wouldn't that scar her emotionally and make her consider a relationship with this guy to be a bad idea? Why stay together, aside from the fact that the writers favor them together?

Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't matter whether Ben or Gwen can forgive him, it doesn't matter whether or not he was under the influence. Kevin did terrible things, so Kevin should realistically be the one to feel guilt about it and have a hard time forgiving himself for a while. Instead, he just laughs it off! He just says "LOL, sorry about all that, got a little crazy there. Oh well, who's up for smoothies?" He still remembers doing all that shit and yet it doesn't even phase him? And we're supposed to believe he isn't normally a sociopath?

especially since the only reason he was like that in the first place was because he saved the whole of the universe in the first place.

And then he almost destroyed it himself. If 10-year old Ben wasn't there, there'd be no stopping Kevin from enacting Aggregor's plan instead. His idea to absorb energy to defeat Aggregor was well-meaning, but stupid.

Pumping up drama there would just make the whole team seem like unlikeable jerks.

Right, and in not doing so for the rest of UA, they became unlikeable jerks anyway.

Ignoring it all to get back to status quo makes the writers seem lazy and the characters cheaper for it. Ultimate Kevin would have been good if the writers committed to it, but they just did it as an attempt to link back to when Kevin was a better character in hopes to justify decisions the writers had made years prior to shove him into this new role. Afterwards, there were no real consequences for anyone.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head here.

In a story like this, you need drama, and you can not just forget about and go back to normal with the team living happily ever after when it's done. When Ben, Gwen, and Kevin are pushed to doing what they do in the story, there has to be lasting consequences, otherwise what's the point? When it's just dropped and forgotten about, you feel like you wasted your time completely watching it all. In the end, all the story was is an attempted Author's Saving Throw at explaining why Kevin is so different and a good guy now (since the writers failed to do this through all of Alien Force when they should have), and once it's out of the way, they can go back to their BS with Ben, Gwen, and Kevin as a team of Junior Plumbers or whatever, hoping that now the audience fully accepts Kevin as a hero. Well, I don't. And until he actually earns his redemption, I never will.

If they had established that absorbing energy made him lose control and that he'd met someone who had helped him gain control of his anger earlier (like at some point during season 1 or even 2 of Alien Force rather than waiting until season 1 of Ultimate Alien) it would have been believable.

Yes. Why Kevin is so different and what the story behind it is...that's one of the first things the audience should be asking when he joins Ben and Gwen. More importantly, it's something Ben and Gwen should be asking! Why let him on their team, with Ben quickly becoming his buddy and Gwen immediately becoming his lover, when they have no idea what caused the change in him, thus having reason to doubt his sincerity? It's something that, if the writing followed any logic, they should have pressed him to tell them from the start. But nope, it's not asked about and not shown until UA, where Ben and Gwen are totally shocked to learn about the details of being Osmosian and the backstory of Kevin in the Null Void. Yeah, the whole thing was a mess.

As it stands, it feels like the only reason they made those justifications in the first place was so they'd have an excuse to turn him evil again

And then to turn him good again with no consequences or work on his part, for a second time.

edited 13th Sep '12 11:49:07 AM by ManwiththePlan

The problem with Kevin comes back to the same issue that I saw often in Ultimate Alien: the writers trying to silence fan complaints.

The characters, often for no reason, would break out and ask the questions that the writers had been receiving from fans since Alien Force started, then answer them half-heartedly and move on. Sometimes they'd have some older character or plot show up, then basically disappear without fanfare. Other times, they'd force in some "drama" (Ben insisting on killing Kevin for no real reason) or "humor" without bothering to see how it worked with the storyline. They seemed to think that just by addressing the existence of these fan complaints in-show or tossing in callbacks/emotional manipulation, that they'd get everyone to shut up about these fundamental problems without actually having to change anything.

While I do appreciate the fact that the writing staff did pay attention to feedback (which has got to get annoying fast considering this is a kid's show), their response came off as more paying lip-service to the fans than any serious attempt to improve. They had this bland action show in mind and refused to budge on it.

That's why I like Omniverse so much better: the new writers seem to be trying again.

edited 13th Sep '12 1:34:24 PM by Geostomp

Exactly. Had the writers actually stopped and considered why fans were asking for certain changes and explanations, UAF would probably have been much better.

Well, slightly better anyways... with stupid ideas like the Ultimate Forms and Fasttrack, there's no guarantees.

But like I said, just from the first episode I have high hopes for Omniverse. Some of the character designs and voices might be... off... but it's still closer in style to the Ben 10 most people enjoy than UAF ever was.

Hmmm a big bad reference and a monster clown reference? Me thinks the writers have heard of a certain website.

After seeing the full premier, I can confidently say that this series is going to be a big improvement over its predecessors. They've fixed most of the problems I had with Ultimate Alien, especially the characterization (including dropping Kevin and Gwen for someone that actually bounces off Ben well as a partner).

It's hardly amazing, but actually remembers that it's supposed to be a fun action series instead of some pseudo-drama.

The problem with UAF wasn't that it forgot it was supposed to be a fun action series, it seems like they were trying to go in a different direction. That's not a bad idea in and of itself, but it becomes bad when they tried to reconcile pseudo-drama with comedic action due to fan backlash and failed miserably.

But I digress about UAF... unfortunately I missed the premiere of part 2, which makes me sad... so I'm going to have to try and catch it tomorrow. I have seen the preview though, and I have to reiterate something: I hate Derrick's statement that the new Omnitrix doesn't glitch so any mistransformations are Ben's fault. The preview showed him cycling through and selecting the alien he wanted (Humungousaur, I think?) only to get turned into Water Hazard (whose icon shouldn't look anything like Humungousaur's).

How is that Ben's fault? He didn't select the wrong alien, the watch clearly just refused to give him what he selected. I understand you're trying to recapture the spirit of the original series, and that in the original series Ben was an immature kid so it was easy to blame things like that on him, but in this case it's nothing short of insulting.

edited 22nd Sep '12 9:10:50 AM by Khfan429