Manga/Dragon Ball

The SSJG form seems more like it's dependent of the base power of the Saiyan using it, so Goku would still be stronger than Vegeta or Gohan. Vegeta only became stronger than Goku due to rage, something that wouldn't be factored into the form, and Gohan's Ultimate Form is more of a stronger Super Saiyan 3 transformation, so base Gohan is weaker than base Goku. Granted, if Gohan kept the God power like Goku did and used it in his Ultimate Form, he could potentially overpower Beerus and do some real damage to him.

edited 30th Aug '14 11:13:15 AM by Ssj3Gojira

I'm pretty sure Gohan's "ultimate" form isn't a form, just bringing all his power out in base form.

Anger isn't a transformation. Vegeta getting stronger due to rage means Vegeta is accessing more of the power that is already his. It's like when Gohan used his Hidden Power; the power was already his, he just couldn't wield it properly.

So I agree with Saiga, between Ultimate Gohan and Vegeta clearly outperforming Goku in his brief rage-bout with Beerus, picking Goku to be the Super Saiyan God is a completely arbitrary choice. He became the God because he's the main character, not for any real in-story rationale.

Yea, that was something I was kind of asking myself too; beyond main character privileges, why was Goku chosen as the Super Saiyan God? I guess you can somewhat excuse it that Beerus challenged him first, so this should be the one to end it, but still...

• shrug* In any case, it's not too jarring; Goku's the protagonist, of course he's gonna get all of the special power ups before anyone else.

Something that bugged me though, why can Gohan still go Super Saiyan? Wasn't it said somewhere that he couldn't? At all? Or was that a mistranslated?

It's supposed to be that he doesn't need to anymore.

Considering Battle of Gods made it look like Gohan transformed into his Ultimate State, either Toriyama has forgotten how the form itself works or Gohan learned how to make it a separate transformation.

I really hate that Toriyama just forgot is a legitimate explanation for a lot of things now.

Didn't Gohan originally so SS in the previews for BOG, but fan outcry pointed out that he shouldn't so it was changed in the movie itself?

IIRC, Ultimate Gohan isn't a transformation, but he does still need to power up into it. It's like a tier that clicks on when he uses a certain percentage of his power, similar to Freiza's 100%, which also isn't a transformation but still visibly alters his body once activated.

And yet he still used Super Saiyan in the movie to help power Goku up into a Super Saiyan God.

edited 30th Aug '14 1:26:19 PM by Ssj3Gojira

I think Old Kaioshin said that to activate the Ultimate power up he needs to try and turn into a Super sayian.

Here it is:

edited 30th Aug '14 1:58:11 PM by Shlugo_the_great

Off-Topic: Everyone in Dragon Ball is an egotist.

"Stop bluffing." "Quit lying." "That's a nice joke, but you know it's hopeless." Etc. etc.

Nobody EVER f*cking bluffs in Dragon Ball, but everyone always accuses everyone else of bluffing, lying, etc. whenever they reveal more hidden power. It's actually getting a little tiresome.

• Character A: I'm going to reveal a new technique or power!
• Character B: I accuse you of being full of shit even though nobody ever is.
• Character A: Whaha! Now it is YOU who are full of shit!

I swear, some version of this exchange happens in every chapter, sometimes twice a chapter.

edited 30th Aug '14 2:04:13 PM by TobiasDrake

That's one of the main issues with Dragon Ball... while it's a World of Badass, it's also a World Of Pride. Nobody, not even Goku, likes admitting how truly strong they are or how strong their opponents are. That's inconsequentially is responsible from creating the insane amount of Internet Backdraft in regards to who is stronger than who.

That, and also the fact the Toei are some damn inconsistent when indicating who is stronger than who and Toriyama just doesn't give a fuck and pretty much considers Battle Powers bullshit.

edited 30th Aug '14 2:27:00 PM by FireShadow

It just dawned on me.

• Pilaf would've gone after Goku for the Four-Star Ball.
• Piccolo wanted revenge for King Piccolo's death, at Goku's hands.
• Raditz came for Goku.
• Vegeta and Nappa came for Dragon Balls, as a result of Goku and Piccolo killing Raditz.
• Frieza came to Earth to exact revenge on Goku.
• Gero built the Androids because of Goku.
• Cell wanted a fight with Goku before basically ending Earth.

These can all be overlooked, but...

• What are the odds that, on the day that Goku would be temporarily allowed to re-enter the mortal realm, that a cabal of space-faring demons, possessed by an evil, Squishy Wizard would pick the exact same day to arrive on Earth with the intent to unleash primordial evil?

Like Goku said: "Everything bad has been connected to me. Imma stay dead."

Pretty good considering they where there to attend the same Martial Arts tournement as a pretext for stealing energy right?

edited 30th Aug '14 9:07:47 PM by lycropath

• Pilaf would have gone after the Four Star Ball no matter where it was.
• If Goku hadn't killed Piccolo Daimao, then Piccolo Daimao would still be around.
• Raditz came for Earth. While his initial mission was to retrieve Goku for a job the Saiyans were pulling elsewhere, he explicitly states that they're coming back to wipe out Earth next.
• Vegeta and Nappa came for the Dragon Balls as a result of Piccolo boasting to Raditz about their existence within earshot of the transmitter he didn't know was in his scouter. And even if they hadn't, as Raditz pointed out, they were still scheduled to come back and exterminate it.
• Like Piccolo Daimao, if Goku hadn't defeated Frieza, then Frieza would still be around, and he'd already put "Exterminate Earth" on his To-Do List twice before^LISTEN! Once when Goku was first sent to the planet, then again when Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta were supposed to come back and slaughter it.
• Gero was building Androids long before Goku ever met the Red Ribbon Army; they had Android 8 in Muscle Tower.
• Cell wanted a good fight, Goku was merely the best available opportunity to get it. Also he was slaughtering people long before that idea ever even occurred to him.

Still not buying the idea that Goku's existence is the reason for everything bad that ever happened.

edited 30th Aug '14 9:19:26 PM by TobiasDrake

You make a good point. Many of the threats would have happened anyway if not for Goku.

Then again, if Goku and company had not all gotten together, Pilaf might have killed Bulma for the Dragonballs she had (if she didn't get herself killed, since she had no idea what she was doing), and conquered the world, meaning there would have been no Daimou, and thus the planet would have been okay until Frieza forces showed up to conquer it.

Then Babidi would have shown up with Buu to drain energy from people.

So while Goku was involved in many threats, things might have been worse if he wasn't around.

-swings hat around sternly-

• Goku had the ball.
• If Goku had killed Piccolo Daimao, then Piccolo wouldn't have been born/he wouldn't have done that weird, one-off Namekian reincarnation deal.
• Raditz came looking for Goku, nonetheless.
• Piccolo wouldn't have known about the Dragon Balls if not for Goku.
• If Goku hadn't messed with Frieza, Gero wouldn't have been able to steal his DNA and make the Androids obscenely powerful.
• Gero built the Androids explicitly to kill Goku.
• Without Goku's DNA, Cell would've been a far less powerful opponent.
• Because of Goku's concept being Flanderized, we now have several films where he makes everyone else look weak.
• Because Goku exists, Justin Chatwin was able to portray him in the live-action.

Also Raditz only remembered Earth because they were short one Saiyan, and that Saiyan was his brother.

You're forgetting one important detail:

• Pilaf released King Piccolo as a backup plan. He'd still be sealed if it wasn't for Goku.

But hey:

• If Goku hadn't been there, Piccolo wouldn't have been released, but Pilaf would rule the world.

How bad would that have been, though, and how long would it have lasted before it naturally fell apart, really?

edited 31st Aug '14 5:38:31 AM by BaffleBlend

A large amount of Pilaf gathering the Dragon Balls was due to Goku being able to collect them and his group being stupid.

Indeed. Pilaf basically just sat in his castle until Goku and his crew accidentally brought him the Dragon Balls.

The Red Ribbon Army put in a much more active search. Without Goku's intervention, there is a very real possibility that Commander Red would be seven feet tall today.