Manga/Dragon Ball

Nevermind

edited 16th Dec '17 4:50:17 AM by randomness4

So? You're giving Roshi too much credit. He was able to point out that Goku has reached the point where Roshi's direct tutelage would be less beneficial than going it alone. That doesn't mean Goku was still training under him, so to say he only stopped under Roshi to train under God is completely false.

And just about every other character he meets. Roshi is the only one stronger than him in the entire first arc, he takes eight months of training to beat other martial artists that have spent years on their work. There's also three days spent at Karin's in order to surpass Tao and Roshi, and sweep through Uranai Baba's fighters, including overpowering his grandpa who has much more experience than him.

There is no evidence anywhere in earlier Dragon Ball that he worked harder than his contemporaries, and no-one attributes his superiority to hard work. You just saying it's because of hard work does not make it so. We have seen several characters who invested more time and training into what they did and can't hold a candle to the superhuman characters, because they're not superhuman.

No, Goku's enjoyment for fighting is still unique to him. Vegeta points it out that the pure enjoyment he has is unique, because other Saiyans enjoy feeling superior and reveling in their power. Bouncing back from injuries with determination? Not really a defined trait of his until he became a Saiyan - for Saiyans, that is due to biological benefit. The fact that Goku is a very determined individual is still on him. You've conflated two separate traits there. His appetite? Who cares. It's a source of gags and doesn't add much to his character.

One of those scenes (F Trunks) is purely from anime and goes against the manga and what the series has established. It may be good in isolation, but not the broader context of the series. The other isn't even Super Saiyan 1, and came from a character who already gets power-ups from rage. After Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, you can't really repeat that again and it's better to let things move forward rather than prevent other characters being relevant in an attempt to keep that moment sacred.

And Future Trunks wasn't a seasoned warrior. He was barely older than Goten and Trunks are now, and incredibly inexperienced. It's a big part of his character in the Android arc that he hasn't actually had much real combat experience and makes a lot of rookie mistakes as a result of it.

"And Future Trunks wasn't a seasoned warrior. He was barely older than Goten and Trunks are now, and incredibly inexperienced. It's a big part of his character in the Android arc that he hasn't actually had much real combat experience and makes a lot of rookie mistakes as a result of it."

I never said he was seasoned just "well trained" - which he was.

I disagree. Krillin's always been one of my favorite parts of the show, both as a mischievous Bratty Half-Pint in early Dragon Ball and as a plucky Nice Guy in Z. He's endearing, he has a great sense of humor, and he never stops trying even when he knows he's out of his depth. That moment when he severs Freeza's tail with the kienzan was one of the most satisfying moments of the arc.

He's not, though. Not at the time when he becomes a Super Saiyan, because Gohan kept him out of things.

Really? He just chucks a Kienzan from off-screen and it takes the end of Freeza's tail, which has no impact in the long run. Hell, it wasn't even treated like a big deal in the short run. I don't see what is so satisfying about that.

I like Kuririn - aside from the 'reward' nature of his relationship with 18 - but he's also had plenty of exposure even in later arcs. He doesn't need to be in everything.

edited 16th Dec '17 5:06:26 AM by Saiga

Gohan kept him out of the fight while training him.

Now if it cut off Freeza's hand or something, that would've made a difference....provided he couldn't grow that back too by transforming.

Really? He just chucks a Kienzan from off-screen and it takes the end of Freeza's tail, which has no impact in the long run.

The guy who Freeza thought he just gored to death severed his tail and taunted him about it. Sometimes flipping off Cthulhu can be just as satisfying as punching him out.

We don't know how long he was doing that for, only that Trunks' Super Saiyan form was weaker than Gohan's baseform after he had apparently grown in a very short time. So it's likely that the training had not been going for long since he was so weak and still a marked improvement.

You're really overstating things there. Kuririn got up again because of Dende. He didn't flip off Cthulu at all, he got a stay of execution.

Like it's nice but really not that big a deal.

edited 16th Dec '17 5:33:22 AM by Saiga

Doesn't that technically count? He was mocking Freeza and Freeza did get bothered by the cut.

Looking at the laconic, I guess. Doesn't really suit the name though, makes it sound much more grandiose than it really is.

Just insulting someone isn't worthy of much praise.

When the other person has approximately 50 times your power level however...

When that person can blow up the planet you're standing on, and has been killing a good amount of indigenous peoples all day, and is more than capable of surviving a barrage of lasers to the face without blinking, and not too long ago had just impaled you on their horn...

Yeah, I'd say telling that wanker to shove it where the sun don't shine is a big deal.

I think that's suppose to be the point....

edited 16th Dec '17 6:19:42 AM by randomness4

I mean, let's face it *nothing* anyone did mattered till Goku got there. Might as well be ballsy.

That would also be the point.

@Sigil: Yeah, it kinda sucks that Piccolo went through the trouble of being revived, sent to Name, and fusing with the strongest Namekian, only to do nothing but distract Frieza once or twice.

x5 No, I don't think it is. He was already planning on killing him anyway, so it's not like Kuririn risked anything by taunting him.

edited 16th Dec '17 6:29:58 AM by Saiga

Yes, but it still requires gigantic balls to do that.

No, it doesn't. Kuririn's got nothing to lose at that point.

Except getting died again...and in a worse way.

"No, it doesn't. Kuririn's got nothing to lose at that point."

In a logical sense yes but he is:

A. On a battlefield with someone who is 50 times stronger than him

B. On an alien world he has never been to before

C. Has basically been in danger of death for this entire arc since everyone he's met since the first two mooks was strong enough to kill him

So if he made the rational judgement "might as well insult him" then that's a stunning display of levelheadedness at the very least.

Right, was gonna get involved in this argument, but I doubt I could add much that hasn't always been covered.

I will say this:

To be fair, Goku was told ahead of time that if he tried to throw the match, his universe would be erased on the spot (or was it just him, I can't quite recall, but the Grand Priest ruled out Goku pulling his punches early on). That doesn't make Goku's lack of concern over the situation any less frustrating but still.

...right, I am going to get into the other argument. Hypocrite powers are go!

1) Using Trunks and Goten: It would be a matter of convincing Chi-chi and Bulma. Now unlike with Buu, where Goku was dead, Vegeta was dead, and Gohan was believed dead, there are other options this time, so it would be even harder than normal (especially for Chi-chi, who's default reaction is FUCK NO). Now, given their Track record, Goten and Trunks are massively iffy. They screwed around a lot in the Buu fight, and even if they didn't do that, their most powerful form craps out after a few minutes. Plus if Gotenks gets eliminated, that's two warriors down. I also don't trust either Toei or Toriyama to not have them act stupid for either humour or drama, because that's how they have always been played. Yes, they could be powerful if they grew up a bit, but that's not gonna happen both in universe, and from a meta standpoint.

2) Bringing back the humans: ...well, the problem isn't powering them up. The problem is that the system was against them in the first place. As far back as early Dragonball, the gap between them and Goku (and all enemies who were either scaled to Goku or beyond him) was always monumentally huge. Toriyama, like Goten and Trunks, set them up to fail from the get go. They were never characters; they were measuring sticks and punching bags, there to create hype for when Goku (who has a bad habit of never being around until the very last minute) arrives to bail them out, their efforts always rendered utterly pointless in the face of another enemy who utterly dwarfs them. When a half dead Piccolo is still so powerful that Tien, Yamcha and Krillin can't even hope to even slow him down, you know Power Creep is high. That being said, I do agree that them coming back is a poor idea, because the gaps are way too big. It also doesn't help that the reasons for leaving them out are often so poorly thought out (I mean, why was Roshi involved over Yamcha; memes be damed, we know who's the stronger between those two).

3) Roshi: I've actually liked his return, and the fact that he shut down his own perversion in order to help defend his universe. Roshi is at his best when they don't focus on his damned perversion, which is (now) the worst aspect of his character. He has no business being there, and I'll admit that, but I've still enjoyed what he's put out.

....Welp, that's it. I'm done....for now. It is me, so expect this dead horse to be beaten again sometime in the future.

I don't think it being "grand" is a requirement for that specific trope. Just you managing to somehow screw over something that is far more powerful than you...

Even discounting Pushover and Sigil exaggerating Goten and Trunks' flaws because of their clear biases against the characters, I have to say that arguing what basically amounts to "these characters are underdeveloped so let's not develop them in favor of characters we've already had a ton with" doesn't strike me as particularly convincing. Especially given that Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, etc, also started out pretty flat and became endearing and or interesting (if you consider them such...) because time spent actually making them so. That's how character development works, by, well, developing the characters.

Add in that by the series' own logic and what has been established that Goten and Trunks should still be clearly out of their leagues you really just don't have much ground to stand on for why it's "better" for the story to exclude them but try and force Tien and Roshi back.

It reeks of bad nostalgia to me, and I'm making that decision because I don't consider nostalgia an inherently bad thing, and it can even enhance appreciation for a story, but that's not really the kind of read I'm getting from some people here.

edited 16th Dec '17 10:38:08 AM by LSBK