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Misused (YKTTW name crowner): Heroes Prefer Swords get usage counts

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Because it's impractical and inconvenient to have separate tropes for every reason why a character uses an axe as a weapon. It's a Lumper vs. Splitter issue. The Weapon of Choice tropes explain some major associations that a weapon generally holds, but they're never going to fit all examples perfectly. It's not like Personality Powers, where everything's spelled out; the weapons someone uses aren't windows into the soul. Nevertheless, they do usually carry meaning, and the tropes serve a purpose.

edited 7th Mar '12 7:55:32 PM by Treblain

We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 102 ccoa, Thu, 8th Mar '12 6:34:45 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
I'm not saying we can't lump them (although my preference is to split to help prevent the current misuse), just that we should be stricter about enforcing whatever requirements the trope does have.

If an example doesn't fit the trope, it's not an example. That's true for these tropes the same as it is for all others.

For example, if we had a trope for using cheese graters as a Weapon of Choice, and the descriptions said that people who use cheese graters are master chefs, people with food-related trauma in their childhoods, or people prone to giving cheesy speeches, then any example that doesn't have at least one of those characteristics shouldn't be allowed.

Currently, we don't really enforce those standards. Any character who uses a cheese grater would get that trope on their character entry.

But a general clean-up of Weapon of Choice tropes is probably a separate TRS.

edited 8th Mar '12 6:46:01 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 103 Martello, Thu, 8th Mar '12 7:59:31 AM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
Ccoa, have you made a Swords Are Heroic YKTTW yet? If not I'll write one up.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
 104 ccoa, Thu, 8th Mar '12 8:29:36 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
No, I haven't. I suppose we can make the various subtrope YKTT Ws now, and if we choose to have a merged trope later, we can simply merge them all.

On that note, do we need a crowner to split up Heroes Prefer Swords or not?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 105 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 10:36:51 AM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
YKTTW here. Sorry it took so long for me to make it, the weekend is never a productive troping time for me. Too much carousing.

I suppose we could do a crowner for splitting Heroes Prefer Swords, but do we really need one? Is anyone in opposition to split?
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Not An Avatar
What's wrong with Heroes Prefer Swords as a title, if it actually means what it says this time? The YKTTW seems to cover the nobility, higher rank, and symbolic rationales for use of swords, so I assume we're not going for a wider split.

The YKTTW is mostly good, but it's more presumptive on a few points than necessary. It spends a little too much text passing judgment on works where the hero uses a sword in "unrealistic" circumstances. A trope should be about what happens, not what should have happened. The second and third paragraph are contemplating a usage that's much more uncommon than the trope in general. Even when a Farm Boy ends up using a sword he tends to acquire it in some significant way; it doesn't just turn up. Plus, the text about spears being more widely used assumes that the hero is involved in large-scale warfare where spears are the sensible weapon; fantasy heroes tend to leave the war to The Aragorn and engage in smaller conflicts where swords are more appropriate.

And seeing as how hero —> sword applies regardless of setting, I don't see why the trope needs to specify time period. The trope can still apply in non-medieval settings, even though anachronism = cool! is another factor.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 107 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 5:35:10 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
If you want to rework the definition, please do as I wrote it after waking up with a serious hangover today. I see the points you've made. How about you write up a Sandbox.Swords Are Heroic or Sandbox.Heroes Prefer Swords as you like, and we'll compare and contrast the two?

I still think medieval time period is integral to the trope, because heroes using swords as opposed to guns is not the same thing. One of them is a judgment on swords being better and more heroic than any other contemporary weapon, the other is just unrealistic and a little ridiculous.

edited 11th Mar '12 5:35:35 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
The trope is "writers associate swords with heroic traits." Why does it matter how ridiculous it is for the hero to be using a sword in that setting?

 109 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 7:10:39 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
I just explained it. Read my post above yours again.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Your post says "One of them is a judgment on swords being better and more heroic than any other contemporary weapon, the other is just unrealistic and a little ridiculous."

I'm asking why it matter that one of them is unrealistic and ridiculous. Can't it be ridiculous and still be an example of Heroes Prefer Swords?

edited 11th Mar '12 7:38:42 PM by abk0100

 111 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 7:43:02 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
No, because Swords Are Heroic is specifically about swords being used over any other contemporary weapon because sword = hero. Anachronistic Weapon User is about heroes using old-fashioned weapons for Rule of Cool. I don't think it's a symbol of heroism in that case. Morpheus using a katana in The Matrix Reloaded is an example of both Katanas Are Just Better and Anachronistic Weapon User, but not Swords Are Heroic. Morpheus isn't The Hero, he's The Lancer. Father Anderson in Hellsing is also not a hero, despite using giant knives instead of anything more modern. He's just an Anachronistic Weapon User, again for Rule of Cool.

If you can give me an example of what you mean I might be able to see your point.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
See, this is why the page should list examples, and not exceptions. I'd be able to just look through the list and find a good example to show you.

How about Chrono Trigger? The 2 most heroic characters both use swords, and never anything else, even when they go to the future. All the other characters use different weapons.

It applies to a lot of RPGs, come to think of it. The hero will be the sword user, even when the rest of the party has guns and other futuristic weapons.

edited 11th Mar '12 8:00:43 PM by abk0100

 113 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 8:04:52 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
I still think those are a different trope. And did you bother to read the YKTTW I linked to a few posts up? I've only listed examples so far, not aversions. Aversions are fine too, like Dominic the dog from the William Steig book of the same name. He uses a spear the whole book, and he's a lone wanderer, not a soldier.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
"I still think those are a different trope."

Yeah, I got that. Why?

And why would you ask me to think of an example and then not even bother to respond to it?

edited 11th Mar '12 8:13:26 PM by abk0100

 115 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 8:13:26 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
Look, if you don't get my point from all my posts so far, you're probably not going to. Again, did you read the YKTTW? That should answer some of your questions.

Your Chrono Trigger example is Anachronistic Weapon User, just like Father Anderson. There's no difference if they use battle-axes instead of swords.

edited 11th Mar '12 8:14:59 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Yeah, I read it. And almost everything in the description applies to the Chrono Trigger example.

"There's no difference if they use battle-axes instead of swords."

The difference is that a battle-axe wouldn't be as heroic.

edit: Looking at the YKTTW, there's this line at the end:

"A subtrope of Weapon Of Choice. Related to Katanas Are Just Better, and Anachronistic Weapon User when the weapon is a sword."

So, as it stands, the trope actually does include anachronistic sword users. I don't know why you were arguing about it.

edited 11th Mar '12 8:27:31 PM by abk0100

 117 Martello, Sun, 11th Mar '12 8:30:15 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
"Related to, " not "the same thing as." There's some overlap, but they aren't the same trope.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
...when did I say that Anachronistic Weapon User and it are the same trope?

I guess post 114 kind of sounds like I'm saying that... huh. I was just saying that the trope shouldn't exclude examples of anachronistic weapon users.

edited 11th Mar '12 8:34:21 PM by abk0100

 119 Dragon Quest Z, Sun, 11th Mar '12 8:42:05 PM from Somewhere in California
The Other Troper
Can we just make a page action crowner and settle this?
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Okay. What are we settling exactly tho? I'm kind of lost about what's happening in this thread at this point.

Cure Candy
[up][up] Problem is people cant decide on what is what and what should be in the crowner.

IMO things should be split like this

edited 12th Mar '12 12:13:42 AM by Raso

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Re: the back-and-forth: yes, you can fit both tropes. No reason why something can't count as two tropes. But they are different. A better example would be Final Fantasy VII (and some others in the series). Hero uses a sword in a setting where effective firearms exist. Some other characters also don't use guns, but they don't use swords. It fits the qualifications of Heroes Prefer Swords as well as counting as Rule of Cool anachronistic weapon use.

Re: what's going on: a new version of "the trope about heroes using swords" is being decided on, and will accept examples from YKTTW since it was previously aversions-only. That's the priority, really.

Meanwhile, there's a new trope in the works about characters using swords and other primitive weapons in a modern/futuristic setting.

In addition, "heroes using swords" is too specific to qualify as a subtrope of Weapon of Choice, so we will need to make a new trope to be "heroes using swords"'s supertrope. ccoa noted that Weapon of Choice weapon tropes are prone to becoming lists of characters who use that weapon. Frankly, she's right; I just don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and it's better to have a sword trope there than to have a big empty spot.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
I'm not really seeing Swords Are Heroic and Heroes Prefer Swords as 2 separate tropes. Don't protagonists in video games use swords for the exact same reason that characters in stories use swords - because it makes them look heroic?

edited 11th Mar '12 11:27:38 PM by abk0100

 124 ccoa, Mon, 12th Mar '12 7:31:33 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
My two cents:

Anachronistic Swordsman and Swords Are Heroic are two very different tropes. I don't believe they should be merged.

However, I don't see a reason there can't be overlap. I don't see anything mutually exclusive about the tropes. A sword-wielder in a modern setting is an Anachronistic Swordsman. He may have been given that weapon because of Rule of Cool, because Swords Are Heroic, because Swords Are Balanced, or any combination of those.

edited 12th Mar '12 7:35:08 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 125 Martello, Mon, 12th Mar '12 8:59:18 AM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
Agree completely.

It's my belief that ccoa is never wrong unless I disagree with her, so I'm pretty sure that's how this trope should be split.
"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

Alternative Titles: Deprecated Weapon YKTTW
21st Jun '12 9:21:06 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:

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