Digimon Xros Wars II

•I think the second to last episode was the best of the season.

Defenitely. The sheer awesomness of heroes from past seasons teaming up to fight an army of Myotismon cannot be denied.

Just about every episode of the entire season was better than the last episode because of just how... anti-climactic that last episode was (especially in comparison to other Digimon seasons). At least in those episodes you could sit back and enjoy it for what it was (AKA:monster-of-the-week).

Disagree about the "enjoy it for what it is" part seeing as...they weren't always that enjoyable. And while the last episode sucked, it at least had Quartzmon.

edited 29th Mar '12 9:50:08 AM by ManwiththePlan

The second-to-last episode was pretty much the only episode worth watching for people who aren't die-hard Digimon fans. It was a pretty awesome episode. I liked the last episode, too, but mainly for the Body Horror and the Eldritch Abomination that is Quartzmon.

Well. I must admit, as we discuss You Know Who more and more, I begin to resent him. I'm already finding that I no longer care to defend him (and I didn't care that much). I guess we officially have our absolute worst hero ever for the series. Quite a dubious title.

And now, I will no longer speak of him.

That being said, Quartzmon might be the most powerful villain of the series (with only Milleniumon as another possible candidate), what with it requiring a group of heroes from previous universes to take him down.

edited 28th Mar '12 8:12:12 PM by HandsomeRob

Quite possibly. Quartzmon is the only villain to ever succeed in taking over Earth. I think that Lucemon's deletion of the Digital World was better presented, though. Quartzmon took over SO quickly that my Suspension of Disbelief was broken. Also, does that mean that the whole world is now aware of Digi Quartz?

Tagiru is fine, you guys just like being haters for no reason because he realistically acts like how a kid would act. He's not even that much of an idiot, and he certainly isn't selfish.

I don't seem to recall Gumdramon ever Dark Evolving. yet you guys want to root for the returning heroes that 90 percent of them made their Digimon Dark Evolve at some point or did things far worse than "being selfish" that or the old Xros Wars characters, like Yuu, who spent most of his time in the original Xros Wars doing whatever Dark Knightmon told him.

Tagiru has more ground to stand on compared to how badly the toehr returning character have screwed up in the past. Funnily, he's almost as competent as Taiki.

edited 28th Mar '12 8:30:28 PM by Clawshrimpy

There have been three heroes who haven't had evolutions go wrong. Those three heroes are Daisuke, Tagiru, and Taiki. I don't think that lack of a Dark evolution means that a character is good, or vice versa. It just means that they didn't have something they needed to overcome.

Yuu was a more interesting character than Tagiru, though, which is probably a huge part of why people wanted Yuu to get more screentime.

edited 28th Mar '12 8:30:49 PM by Keyseeker

True.

I think you're going to have to throw in the towel on this one Claw Shrimpy.

There were only two people willing to defend Tagiru, and I was one of them (and I didn't really try that hard). You're kinda on you're own here. You don't have to stop liking him, but I don't think you'll be convincing anyone he a good character.

edited 28th Mar '12 8:35:59 PM by HandsomeRob

Yuu was a really lame faux-Kaiser though. he spent most of his time in the original Xros Wars being Dark Knightmon's lapdog, and then h e just became a jerky Yamato-lite.

and when Yuu wasn't being a complete jerk to Tagiru, he was far mre guilty of cringe-worthy humor in the MOTW episodes.

Truth is, I don't even see how Tagiru is an Idiot Hero. He's pretty in-line with any kid his age thrown into that situation.

And it's not that I don't hate Idiot Hero characters that promote an anti-thinking mentality! let me say I've seen in other certain shows I don't like, characters that act more illogically and inept than Tagiru. the worst thing Tagiru did was the Meta Life Kuwagamon thing, and in terms of Idiot Hero fuckups, that's pretty god damn low on the list.

edited 28th Mar '12 8:53:35 PM by Clawshrimpy

I'll take over then.

Though, seriously, I never hated or really liked him. I found him to be occasionally amusing but otherwise unremarkable. He was just trying too hard to be the hero and never showed signs of real/significant development.

Do I think the series as a whole could have been significantly better if any number of things (including aspect of his character) had been done differently? Yes. But I just can't bring myself to care about this series/season enough to have the sort of attachment that other people here have shown.

Oh, don't try to say that you are not attached to it, even if you are arguing against it. If you weren't attached to it, why would you be arguing so much about it?

I would have to disagree with quartzmon being the most powerful since the reason he took over the earth in one episode was a) it was quite literally the last episode and b) The Xros Wars world in general can be conquered at a drop of a hat (as Bagramon showed), whereas Adventure took years (which appeared as days in the human world), Tamers would take way more than the two weeks we have been shown until the D-Reaper killed everyone, Frontier took the Royal Knights Arc just to destroy the digital world and Savers took a few weeks until it was days or hours from obliteration.

If tagiru was realistic, he would have been reduced to a sobbing mess after facing quartzmon since he hadn't faced nothing even remotely as scary, which coincidentally is also one of the problem's with daisuke's characterization in 02. Actually, it is even notable how Hunters managed to repeat nearly all of 02's mistakes in the last episode.

I was refering to how everyone but daisuke was scared out of their mind after Belial Vandemon/Malo Myotismon murdered Arukenimon and Mummymon (even though Takeru and Hikari had gone through a lot more than the others), and comparing to how Tagiru is not even remotely worried at the fact that he was being digested after being attacked by quartzmon, or that his enemy had already eaten everyone else and thus nobody would be able to help him and gumdramon.

edited 29th Mar '12 6:10:13 AM by luislucas

Not exactly, Tagiru overcoming Quartzmon worked well, where, with Mind Illusion, Daisuke said "he has no desires" and then said "what he really wants is to defeat Belial Vamdemon." which makes no sense because that should count as a desire.

edited 29th Mar '12 4:20:57 AM by Clawshrimpy

@Clawshrimpy: It's true that Tagiru doesn't out-right do many stupid things. It helps that in this series, all it really comes down to is

A. Find the Monster of the Week. (This is usually pretty easy). B. Sic Arresterdramon on it. (There's usually very little strategy involved in this. Just pummel it until it turns into data or gives up.)

Fighting in this series is pretty idiot-proof. Tagiru's main problems are that he's hyper and impulsive. He just jumps right in without a second thought. This isn't bad in and of itself, but that's about all he has. He's hyper and friendly. That's all. He's a flat, static character, which does not make for a very interesting lead.

@Belian: Sure I care about the series. I care about Digimon a lot. I've been obsessed with it since I was 9 or 10 years old, so naturally, I care when it spits out something that isn't up to par.

Eh. I think this was a pretty good season/part of a season with the exception of a few episodes. Though I do agree that the plot should have shown up more if they did want it to be episodic yet still have a continuing plot.

It's funny, but once again I bring up that Tagiru himself pointed out that his only virtue(though he likely does have other, they just weren't emphasized) is that he and Gumdramon are stupidly straight forward during the Betsumon episode. It was the reason he was able to help and befriend so many.

Ironically, Taiki didn't have much development either. He's the same guy pre Shoutmon that he is after all the craziness of the digital world is done with. it's just that Taiki has more to him already, being smarter than the average goggle head, so people don't disdain him as much.

Tagiru NEEDED some development, and he got none. He'd always have had to deal with replacing Taiki, whether is it was a continuation or a new show, but at least with development, he might have gained some leeway.

Tagiru is fine, you guys just like being haters for no reason because he realistically acts like how a kid would act.

Because most kids act like hyperactively idiotic/retarded twerps. But if it was for "realistic everyday kid" they were going for, then that surprisingly adds even more to the Canon Sue vibe.

He's not even that much of an idiot,

He's the biggest Idiot Hero in the franchise's history.

Funnily, he's almost as competent as Taiki

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, NO. Taiki's a strategist: Tagiru's an incredibly lucky fool.

Yuu was a more interesting character than Tagiru, though, which is probably a huge part of why people wanted Yuu to get more screentime

Amen. Yuu's potential did not feel "over" to me; he needed more focus.

Yuu was a really lame faux-Kaiser though

But the Kaiser was a character from 02. Anything has to be better than him then, right?

and when Yuu wasn't being a complete jerk to Tagiru, he was far mre guilty of cringe-worthy humor in the MOTW episodes.

Yeah, it's not as funny when the character's not an overactive, predictable idiot.

Oh, don't try to say that you are not attached to it, even if you are arguing against it. If you weren't attached to it, why would you be arguing so much about it?

For me, it's an attachment to Digimon as a whole. When I see a Digimon season that has potential that it absolutely squanders (in this one's case, it's even worse than 02 and Frontier, which were also bad), I'm going to rail against it and against the things I feel make it so bad, most of which are all related to Tagiru. Like Keyseeker said, I care when it spits out something that isn't up to par.

If tagiru was realistic, he would have been reduced to a sobbing mess after facing quartzmon since he hadn't faced nothing even remotely as scary, which coincidentally is also one of the problem's with daisuke's characterization in 02. Actually, it is even notable how Hunters managed to repeat nearly all of 02's mistakes in the last episode.

This.

That's all. He's a flat, static character, which does not make for a very interesting lead.

And this too.

edited 29th Mar '12 10:21:49 AM by ManwiththePlan

There is a fine line between a character being an "idiot" and you just not liking the said character. Tagiru has not did anything dumber than any other lead. Let's talk about OTHER lead characters being even more of idiots.

in Adventure , Taichi was an utter jerk to everyone else on the team in the Dark Masters arc, trying to force them to keep moving when they couldn't keep up with him, the only time he stopped was when Hikari got sick.

I think I've covered Daisuke's many many mistakes enough.

Masaru was always "don't ask questions, just punch it." even though that never worked several times.

You know Clawshrimpy, I think some of these point you've made are certainly valid. Past protags have definitely made their share of foolish, rash and non-thinking mistakes, so in those respects they aren't better than Taiki or Tagiru.

However, I think some of what separates people's dissatisfaction and feeling of overall shortcoming is in the static-ness of this season in general. I'll be un front and admit that for a long time I was on the "Tagiru is annoying as heck" bandwagon and I've lightened up a lot. The thing for me is that we didn't see any remarkable, and *lasting* expansion of character on Tagiru's part. He definitely had his "mature" moments and at those times, his sheer determination didn't come off as "foolish" or "idiotic." In the last episode, he was even written to have a moment of massive cowardice when Taiki basically told him, "well. we're all damaged, it's up to you" So that clearly shows Tagiru's level of conceit isn't incessant.

So my take is that one can appreciate the positive flickering moments from this season's protag and just let go of the negatives. To me, it seems just about everything people have griped about can be traced back to the lack of episodes to flesh out characters more, and the rival hunters will serve as the number 1 example without exception; considering they are so different and we never found out how they decided to work together in the first place.

edited 29th Mar '12 11:48:28 AM by TvWiki009

Yeah, this.

edited 29th Mar '12 11:58:42 AM by Clawshrimpy

There is a fine line between a character being an "idiot" and you just not liking the said character. Tagiru has not did anything dumber than any other lead.

Um, no. It's not just my dislike of the character. Tagiru really is the biggest Idiot Hero in the franchise. It's not a matter of him not doing anything dumber than any other lead so much as he acts dumber than every other lead on a regular basis.

You're confusing being energetic and excitable with being an idiot.

It's being energetic and excitable without really thinking. And yes, that's being an idiot.

An Idiot Hero is, by defenition, a hero that acts like a ditz all the time. Tagiru played that completely straight more than anyone else in the franchise by far.

edited 29th Mar '12 12:18:41 PM by ManwiththePlan

X5

I also agree with this. Having watched the sub of the finale, I felt that his genuine hesitation when basically told to take both Taiki and Ryouma's place was interesting. I feel like there was a-lot of potential. As Man With The Plan has pointed out, he is probably the biggest Idiot Hero in the whole franchise, but there was so much potential.

I actually don't blame them for making him that way. They had to set him apart from Taiki, who is without a doubt, the smartest hero in the franchise. That being said, they didn't put in the necessary effort towards...

I've said all this already. No development. Hunters should have been it's own series, or they should have stuck with what they had. I'm wondering if there was some Executive Meddling somewhere that caused things to turn out as they did. Whatever the case, it's done with. There were still some shining moments, even from our hero, weakest in the franchise though he may be.

Also, Taiki already guessing who the old man was was kind of cool. He never ceases to amaze.

And now I understand why the old man was so on the ball not just on how to defeat Quartzmon, but on a bunch of other things. It makes sense that a former villain would be so Genre Savvy about another villain. He gathered the forces to fight the villain, worked around a limitation that the previous heroes had (by bringing in those not limited by said limitation), and still had one trump card in Clockmon's Chrono breaker, which bought them a few extra seconds.

It actually makes sense that he would want to protect the world. He was all about idealism and...something else I can't remember. Having been defeated previously, he acknowledged that Taiki and Shoutmon's strength and idealism surpassed his own, and opted to help preserve what they had created.

Our first Big Bad to Heel–Face Turn in Digimon. Not bad.

I think you may have touched a sore spot there... The fact is, quite a lot of the problems in hunters came from before. In Xros Wars (both the first and second part) there was nearly no development; Taiki remained the same, Shoutmon remained the same, etc. Even Yuu and Nene (heck, even beelzemon/beelzebumon) remained the same, since they had been forced/tricked into doing something they would normally not do and thus their development consisted in them becoming their normal selves. The only one that really went through character development was Kiriha, but even so its also notable that after it was done he was basically thrown out of focus. The plot was also unimportant; you could join the two first episodes and the two last ones (or even just the first and the last) and you would understand most of the relevant plot (replace the evil ruler).

The main difference, or at least the way I see it, is that filler in hunters was incredibly formulaic, hence repetitive and boring, where the previous Xros Wars nearly had a different setting, characters, and mini-plot (if ultimately irrelevant and meaningless) every episode and thus it sometimes managed to surprise the viewers.

edited 29th Mar '12 1:50:41 PM by luislucas