Lets talk about cars/motorsports

... No transmission? How does that work?

Electric motors don't need no stinking transmissions

On another note... How do patents work in the automotive industry, exactly? I'm almost sure that companies get to monopolize all production of whatever innovation that they recently came up for a new car model of theirs, but how long does that last? And what about cases where the model's design was partially done by an external design house, like how the Ferrari Special Projects programme cooperates with Pininfarina and Fioravanti, or BMW contracting Lamborghini for the M1 (before the latter's financial troubles forced BMW to finish it themselves)?

edited 4th Mar '15 5:25:52 AM by MarqFJA

Wow, I killed the thread. -_-

No this thread just likes to take naps every so often because we're all old ass men talking about things we'll never afford.

I was sidetracked by other threads/meatspace things.

Automotive patents: These work like patents in any other industry, namely that once you get one, you can license it to other people for a fee (or not, as Elon Musk is doing at Tesla). Patent expiration will depend on the patent laws of the country it was obtained in.

Joint vehicle design: These days, the cars' "distinctive designs" are the property of the manufacturers like Ferrari, although most of the time any external design houses involved will be able to place a decal or badge of theirs on the car. Design houses usually get sole credit for concept cars designed on their own that weren't contracted by a manufacturer.

OK, here's another question: How do the various car engine/drive layouts in their various combinations compare to each other? Wikipedia's articles aren't all clear on the pros and cons; some are rather comprehensive, most others barely touch upon the issue.

Like a straight six compared to a V8 or something?

Well that sorta depends on the rest of the car.

Layout of the engine itself, or where the engine is in the car (front, mid, etc)?

Plus this forum is the worst place to look for car enthusiasts anyway. Too many young nerds...

Uh, no. I mean this.

Where it is in the car.

And the combinations with front/rear/4-wheel drive, too.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:04:40 AM by MarqFJA

Like rear engine against mid engine against front engine?

Well rear engine is honestly stupid and Porsche only do it because they're some stubborn motherfuckers and are gonna do their damndest to make it work.

Mid engine is good for balance and performance but it's not practical. Say goodbye to a back seat.

Front engine works and is pretty practical but not as good performance wise as mid engine.

Though the rest of the car really does matter. As the Porsche 911 proves you can make even stupid rear engined things work really fucking well if you know what you're doing.

Dammit my post got lost.

Here's some generalizations(FWD = Front wheel drive, FE, front engine, ect)

FE, FWD

Basic commuter/economy car, generally. Weight's all over the drive wheels so that helps with traction, but most of it's in the front. Understeer prone if not well balanced

FE, RWD

Used to be the most common layout, now less so. Most muscle cars were like this. Fairly well balanced generally thanks to the driveshaft running the length of the car, but that adds weight, and the engine's still at the front. Engine's not over the drive wheels, but acceleration puts weight on them anyway so you still get traction when you take off.

RE, RWD

used to be popular in some Euro sports cars, especially Proshe. Also some of the Ford GT models and the Delorean. Similar to FE, FWD in that the engine's over the drive wheels, which is good for traction. Can be oversteer prone if not balanced. Falling out of favor fast though, outside of porshe.

RE, FWD

Don't do this. It is teh dumb.

(don't really know the rest so well)

Mid engine, any layout

Balanced car, more or less. Good traction, and generally better handling.

AWD

useful since all the wheels are powered. American cars generally only see this in off-roaders and the such rather than really fast cars. Europe likes using this in their cars though.

"Plus this forum is the worst place to look for car enthusiasts anyway. Too many young nerds..."

Yea really.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:25:39 AM by Joesolo

And then you have to account for the difference between "front mid-engined" and "rear mid-engined", since there are cars that are ostensibly front-engined, but are actually mid-engined by virtue of the engine being behind the front wheels.

Yup, some of the advantage of a mid-mounted engine without the trouble of going all the way.

Putting the engine in the middle is great for weight distribution, not only do you balance both ends of the car to neither over- nor understeer too much, you also keep both light to reduce inertia. Nice for handling but packaging the rest of the car around that comes with obvious problems.

Having both engine and driven wheels at the front, in addition to what Garcon and Joe said, keeps the powertrain as separate from the interior as possible. No transmission tunnel and possibly some advantages for boot space. It's also great for a variable platform to build a lot of different car models on because all the bits that need strict mechanical connections are kept together. An example is Volkswagen's MQB architecture, just about the only dimension they can't change with that is the distance between front axle and pedal box.

There's something to be said for a rear-engine layout in a small car. The new Renault Twingo and Smart Forfour (same thing, basically) put the engine in the back and get a tiny car with a long wheelbase out of it. While they don't gain any useable space in the front, not having the engine and drive system in the way means the front wheels can turn a good deal more, giving a pretty small turning circle. Neat thing to have in a city car.

All-wheel drive in combination with any engine position means you get your power on the road better, whether it's pushing through more power and/or making it easier to handle in a performance context, or making better use of the power you have. Even if you never intend to leave the road, for driving in wintery conditions, with snow, slush or leaves, having all wheels take part in moving the car can make a world of difference.

Last but not least, engine/drive layout and the actual choice of engine can influence eachother. Front engine/FWD usually limits the physical size of the engine you an cram in there along with all the other stuff, and it will usually be transverse mounted. In turn Porsche can mostly pull of the rear position in the 911 (which moved forward quite a bit with the 991) and the well-disguised rear-mid-engine in the Boxster and Cayman ^note That's in fact a nice trick to play with people, telling them to find the engine in a Boxster: There's a boot under the front and rear lid, while the engine is tucked in between seats and rear wheels. because they stick with flat-sixes which are thin but wide.

edited 7th Mar '15 12:04:17 PM by Catfish42

"There's a boot under the front and rear lid, while the engine is tucked in between seats and rear wheels"

Mechanics must love working on those...

I'll bet they do, for the labour rate

Hah.

Well, there's always a tradeoff. The best-handling roadster in the world but with slight access problems and you run the risk of alienation from normal road users (because you're a prick with a Porsche) and other Porsche drivers (because you don't have a 911).

edited 7th Mar '15 1:43:40 PM by Catfish42

Okay, I'm in need of mechanical advice (again!). Got the clutch replaced, and it seems super-sensitive (might just be because I'm primarily driving the other half's Fiat right now) but the car drives fine. However, there is now a rattling noise when the clutch is engaged which goes away when I put the clutch pedal down or the car is in neutral. Does this sound gearbox-related, and if so, is it serious?

I'm hoping it isn't something that requires many £££ to fix. If it is, it will have to wait a few months (at least the car is no longer being used as a daily driver).

I'm not a mechanic, but that doesn't sound good at all. Sounds like it's coming from the gearbox, right?

Yea that's not good. My brother's saying you should go back and tell them it's making a noise. Somethings probably not attached properly.

Just been out testing it. "Rattle" might be a bit of an exaggeration, the noise is maybe a little too "fine" for that description. I wonder if the clutch just needs breaking in. I'm no mechanic, either, but if it is an issue, I think it's a gearbox one - if worn parts against worn parts didn't make a noise, it presumably stands to reason that worn parts against new parts might.

I will call the guy on Monday regardless.

now i'm gonna ask the question every car enthusiast asks these days:

Porsche 918 vs Mc Laren P1 vs Ferrari La Ferrari

wich one would you choose

Ferrari of course.

Fucking look at that thing, it's beautiful.

Porsche. You can actually live with the damn thing.

Thread hopping. I just barely skimmed through this page, but that bit about different engine positions and drive layouts is on point, though I'm sure we've discussed it multiple times before. Brief note: don't forget about FMR layouts (front-mid engine, rear-wheel drive). Two-seat roadsters tend to be FMR. The BMW Z4, Honda S2000, the Nissan 350Z and my car, the Mazda RX-8, are a few that have that design. It's primarily done to achieve a 50/50 front-rear weight ratio for smoother handling.

Speaking of which, I was out of town for the weekend, and I found some sweet, tight groups of curves. I played it safe on the night of arrival, but on the return trip, I played around with the turns, and it was a lot of fun to really tear into them with some good engine braking and higher speeds than usual.

Agreed. Porsche. I like Ferrari more, but the Porsche 918 is a bit more down to earth.

@ pagad: Probably the throwout/release bearing, but with the new clutch, did they also install a new throwout bearing? They usually do that if you order the whole shebang. For some vehicles, it's a perfectly normal sound, if mildly annoying. For some cars, it can be a sign of a bad one. Get it checked out. At least call.

edited 8th Mar '15 11:08:59 AM by Aprilla