General Page Quote Discussion:

Still doesn't change the fact that I didn't put up the suggestion in an improper format by choice.

Actually, what I was saying had nothing to do with the arrows, and everything to do with the attribution line(s).

Besides, I think we're all smart enough to look at the results of a botched parsing of proper formatting and say "Yes, that's correct, even though it looks wrong in the forums."

So I'm suggesting that instead of:

->First Movie: "In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream"
->Second Movie: "This Time, It's War"
—>— Respective taglines for Alien and Aliens

You instead go with the more standardized:

->In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream
—>— Tagline, Alien

->This Time, It's War
—>— Tagline, Aliens

(I don't believe "Tagline" should be bolded since it is not a character, but I'm not 100% clear on that.)

Well I was also trying to emphasize that one was the follow up, which won't be obvious to those not at least a little familiar with the films.

On one level I agree, but I think context makes it clear enough.

I don't feel strongly about that—but I do think at least a few tropers should agree on the formatting if we are going to go with something nonstandard for the sake of clarity.

For those of us who can't or won't read between the lines: I'm asking for a couple of other tropers to weigh in on this.

I also just realized your suggestion makes it look like two quotes on the trope page, which is a no-no.

A few points:

1. Two quotes is not an absolute no-no—the Quotes Wiki homepage specifically mentions that two quotes is acceptable if they're both short, and I'm pretty positive these taglines qualify as "short".
2. Having the two effectively illustrates the trope in a way that having just one wouldn't do.
3. The most important thing about rules is to know when it's appropriate to bend or break them. Some rules should never be broken—like "Don't rape people." This is not one of those rules. Personally I think this is an appropriate situation to have two quotes.
   • To elaborate: I believe the rule is based on situations where somebody didn't want to choose one because they just liked both quotes so much—the rule is "Tough. Pick one." This situation does not compare—we're not considering using the two because we can't pick one, we're considering using two because together, taken as a unit, they illustrate the trope effectively. I think that's a good reason to suspend the rule in this case.
4. Just dressing them up and formatting them differently so they don't "look" like two quotes isn't going to magically make it a single quote. If we're going to interpret the rule as set in stone and decree that two quotes is never acceptable, then these quotes are not acceptable. I don't think that's the case, but let's not muddy the issue by pretending it's not two quotes.

edited 20th Jul '15 10:25:47 AM by SolipSchism

No Celebrities Were Harmed: Seems to be describing Recycled In Space more than No Celebrities Were Harmed, since almost all of the examples are fictional characters, not people.

But my suggestion is not two quotes. It's two taglines. Splitting them up makes it look like they are two separate lines, when they are meant to work together.

They were not "meant to work together". They are two separate taglines, written for two separate movies, individually intended to sell their respective movies. Nobody who wrote those lines was thinking, "Okay, now if you put them together, it means something special."

I meant in the context of informing the trope. That's where being together is necessary.

That is what I was saying earlier.

What we have here are two quotes that need to be taken as a unit in order to serve the purpose we intend them to serve on this particular page, in this particular context—not two quotes that we're using just because we have two good quotes. Neither one of them gets the point across by itself—we've deliberately chosen two quotes to be used together, and that's why I think they are a good choice. But I don't think it's necessary to pretend they're not two quotes.

edited 21st Jul '15 1:16:17 PM by SolipSchism

I'm not "pretending" they're one quote. I'm stating they need to be included together on one quote.

Now the exact form can be adjusted as needed, but two quotes means separate ways of informing a trope, and what I'm suggesting is one way, just it needs both lines due to the nature of the trope.

I really think we're talking in circles at this point.

We have a line from a movie. No, it's not a line of dialogue, but it is an official part of the work, being its official tagline. It's a quote.

We have the same, from another movie. Yes, they are in the same series of films, but that doesn't mean they are from the same work. We literally have two lines from two separate works. There is no context in which that constitutes a single quote.

We have, unarguably, two quotes. We are using them as a unit. I feel they should be formatted as exactly what they are—two quotes. Any discerning troper should be able to read them and understand why they are both there together. A commented-out note will suffice to make it clear to the less perceptive among us.

Formatting them as if they were a single quote, or two consecutive lines of dialogue, is misleading. More importantly, it would require making up a unique nonstandard format that would only be used on this page; I don't think it's necessary to do that when formatting them normally will serve the same purpose and take nothing away.

I agree with Solip Schism on this. Let's just add the two quotes separated, like in the page for Historical Hero Upgrade.

Thanks for the example—one of the most frustrating things about this conversaiton was that I didn't have a precedent to point to. :p

Weird edit reason for the removal of a quote here. I think it might be saying it's a spoiler, but it's meeting the edit reason more than halfway.

And I reiterate my issue with No Celebrities Were Harmed: Seems to be describing Recycled In Space more than No Celebrities Were Harmed, since almost all of the examples are fictional characters, not people.

I also don't know what they're actually saying. A PM is probably in order.

I object to its removal.

The spoilers on the page are unmarked,why should the quote be removed?

Frankly it's not even clear if being a spoiler is why it was removed. That's the problem with people trying to be clever in their edit reasons; they forget that Clarity isn't only important on the main wiki.

"I agree with Solip Schism on this. Let's just add the two quotes separated, like in the page for Historical Hero Upgrade. "

But that one doesn't have a blank line separating them, so they look like the same set. That works fine.

Solip's suggestion did have the separation. That was what I was objecting to.

edited 22nd Jul '15 11:08:06 AM by DragonQuestZ

*facepalm*

Okay DQZ.

For future reference—Discussions about suggestions like this do not have to be a False Dichotomy. If a compromise or tweak to one suggestion or the other would result in agreement, feel free to suggest as much. If I suggest X, Y, Z, A, B, and C, and the only think that you disagree with is C, don't say "I disagree with you," say "I disagree with C."

Back to the topic at hand, I think that change makes perfect sense.

No, insisting one suggestion is unacceptable is not what a false dichotomy means.

The actual issue is I am honestly largely literal minded. I took your suggestion at face value, and with the line break, it looked like two quotes. If that wasn't what you meant, then I understand what you are going for. Just the format made it genuinely look like someting else to me.

DQZ—Nobody on TVT owns anything they write. That includes me. That includes suggestions for edits posted in the forums. If I post a suggestion and you think it would be better with a change, just suggest the change. I am not my suggestion—taking something out of the middle of my suggestion does not equate to removing one of my organs. I will get over it. In fact I may even like the suggestion.

What I do not like is having a discussion that is five times longer than it needs to be because somebody is saying over and over "I disagree, I disagree, I disagree, your suggestion is bad, I do not like that" when they could save themselves and everybody else so much time by instead saying "Well, what if we made this tiny little tweak to your suggestion".

A False Dichotomy is assuming that two options on the table are the only options. That is exactly what was happening here (and I was guilty too, so don't think I'm letting myself off the hook).

A wiki is a collaborative effort. We have to work together to get anything done.

I henceforth give you and everyone else on the wiki, both present and future users, unbounded permission to suggest any and all tweaks to anything I have ever written, posted, edited, or suggested on the wiki, or will ever write, post, edit, or suggest on the wiki. And regardless of whether anyone else gives me the same permission, I'm going to take it upon myself to make such suggestions anyway, because This Is A Wiki.

Can we move on now? Does anyone object to the suggestion that's been made (format the two taglines as two separate quotes, with no space in between them)?

edited 22nd Jul '15 12:33:49 PM by SolipSchism

"What I do not like is having a discussion that is five times longer than it needs to be because somebody is saying over and over "I disagree, I disagree, I disagree, your suggestion is bad, I do not like that" when they could save themselves and everybody else so much time by instead saying "Well, what if we made this tiny little tweak to your suggestion". "

Honestly, I didn't think that spacing that way was one of the options (as in part of the acceptable quote formatting). I really didn't. So that hypothetical question didn't even occur to me. When I saw it was possible, that made sense.

It was just a freakin' misunderstanding on my part. If you could accept that, the argument would be over fast.

Fair enough. I sound like I'm blaming you. And if we're being perfectly honest, I was—confusing a lack of insight on both our parts for a lack of cooperation on yours. I apologize.

Let's use that quote.