Relying on bullying to "teach" kids about the real world?

Subject came up in this thread. I've laid out my arguments there, but to summarize, it's as follows:

School, in practice, is an environment where cruelty is rewarded and kindness is punished. So long as we fail to correct this, it can only cause kids going through it to become more cruel. (Though a point I didn't emphasize enough there is that this would obviously apply more to the malleable personality of a kid than that of an adult.)

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

You realize that bullying has been going on for as long as the human race as exsisted, right? And that no amount of measures enacted will ever stop it, because it will keep evolving and taking different forms (ex. malicious texts meant to humiliate someone)?

Puh-leez.

Just because we can never truly bring an end to something bad, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimize the damage it does.

Those are completely different subjects, hardly even related to this. And I'm not saying bullying is OK: what I'm saying is that it's going to be impossible to remove unless you decide to create a community that is completely synomyous and understanding of each other. Because as long as there's a single kid out there who thinks that his pranks done " just for fun" aren't hurting anybody, they will continue to do so, and continue to get worse over time until they are corrected or become a serious enough problem to force an authorities' hand. And as it is, a lot of current authorities today have difficulty policing adults, let alone kids, so there's not much to expect there.

edited 18th Jan '12 5:59:59 AM by SgtRicko

W Hat if I told you that bullying is uncommon where I live because of anti-bullying work?

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

I probably wouldn't believe you. I don't think it's possible to get kids to stop making fun of each other for really silly stuff.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Yes, we all*

recognise that bullying is potentially indelible — if nothing else of of its root causes, ignorance and the human error, is also completely indelible — so there's that. And we all*

again, sweeping generalisation for the sake of rhetoric. Bad, bad me.

recognise that it's wrong.

What the OP is arguing is that the current system reinforces the processes, and that's something I certainly agree with. Does it need an overhaul, yeah probably. Certainly would have less teachers treating the kid who lashes out because they're being systematically abused like they're the sole perpetrator of the problem. Would I know where to start, probably not. Maybe jack down the reliance on councillors as a magic cure-all, for one, through education.

But relying on bullying as an educational tool. That's not good, largely because schools aren't a realistic model of the outside world. In the world there are processes that protect people, whether they're legal action, or just the anonymity afforded a person who's capable of taking independent action. A child can't take independent action, and furthermore doesn't have the skills to do it. Hell, most children don't have the skills to verbally define their thoughts that many adults do, making it difficult for them to discuss problems they're having, and they lack the experience to know how to deal with them in a more socially or systematically acceptable way.

The problem with the kid that picks up the chair to hit the kids who've been calling him names isn't just that the system failed him. It's that he doesn't know how to express his sexuality, and has no friends, and knows that he has no way of stopping the kids who're relentlessly teasing him as long as they don't pick up chairs either, especially when the school's willing to overlook a good 30% of the students cheating in their final this-counts-more-than-anything-else-cheat-and-you-fail-everything exams because it'd be too much of a nightmare to handle.

In my own personal experience, of course. That didn't teach me how to deal with bullies. It taught me that some situations can devolve into destructive systems to which there's no solution given the current policies and practises on bullying.

This post has been powered by avenging fury and a balanced diet.

All bullying taught me was the Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Attack.

Thanks School!

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...and the importance of Pupil Opinion and having Authority on your side.

Keep Rolling On

The way I look at it, it really isn't a big deal. Most people in life get through this period of time without being emotionally damaged shutins, if it wasn't a huge problem decades ago, why is it a huge problem now? Have our children somehow gotten weaker? Has the system changed its stance on bullying?

I just figure it's part of growing up, dealing with asshole kids. Teachers should still be stepping in to do something about it, but it doesn't require legislation or anything.

I wouldn't say that bullying is used as a tool by actual grown adults to teach kids anything, it isn't intentional, but it really does teach you about the real world.

edited 18th Jan '12 8:25:27 AM by Barkey

I would like to point out that its not impossible to create a school with no bullying. My middle/high school (they were right next to each other, and for most purposes the same school) was small enough that everyone knew each other, but big enough so you could stay away from people you didn't like. There was no bullying that I ever heard of (the fact that the vice principal was a cop, and his friends from the force occasionally hung around school glaring at people might have helped).

Bullying as a method of teaching? What the hell is everyone smoking? And where can I bag some?

Bullying happens; it's going to happen when you throw two young people in a room with each other the disagree on some point or another. Some people just have problems that they're more than willing to lash onto others for literally no other reason than to get it out of their system or to inflict a similar kind of pain that they feel onto others. That happens in the real world too.

No need for legislation or anything like that, but teachers need to step it up. Bully A is messing with Student B, so both get sent to the principal's office, and punished for causing said ruckus. Now Bully A is even more angry and aggressive with Student B, because B got A into "trouble". And regardless of any of that, all the teacher has to do is handle the situation, not those that are involved.

But it's a complicated situation from the teacher's perspective too. Teachers, despite guiding the young minds they're teaching, have absolutely no power over their students. A kid may honestly need to be forced to sit in the corner, to stare at the wall, and to shut up for the remainder of the class. But all that kid needs to do is tell their parent/guardian, and the potentiality of said teacher loosing their job rises exponentially. Teachers have to watch out for themselves as well, so for them, doing the bare minimum to handle a situation is the best way for everyone involved.

Barkey I would argue it has always been a problem but people are just now speaking up about it. Just like how homosexuality was always around but no one came out of the closet for fear of society going after them.

Not to mention bullying is now much easier thanks to technology.

As a huge victim of bullying I think every step should be taken to stop it. People have no idea how much damage it causes unless they themselves are bullied.

edited 18th Jan '12 10:03:55 AM by Thorn14

Bullying really caused me more harm than good. It's not constructive criticism. If you think it helps people conform with society (which does have its benefits), all it really does is leave people confused as to what they're supposed to be changing. If you think it helps develop thicker skins, while it can indeed cause that for some, it is certainly not a guaranteed case, and many just are left worse off.

Read my stories!

We have laws that protect adults from bullying, but for some reason there's less interest in protecting children from bullying, especially from other children. Suits for harassment, assault, battery, restraining orders, and such all exist. Adults are expected not to take matters into their own hands, but instead to rely upon the lawful authorities to deal with these sorts of problems.

But for some reason schools are just the opposite. There seems to be a mindset that "kids will be kids", and that somehow behavior that wouldn't be acceptable in the workplace or among adults is somehow acceptable for kids. When children are bullied in schools to the extent that they commit suicide, and the response of the school is a resounding, "Meh", what does that say?

And it has been a problem for a while. Remember segregation? That's just another form of bullying, and it was perfectly legal until people stood up and demanded the laws change.

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.

It's possible to protect kids from bullying without mollycoddling them. Take my school for example. I was billed during my first year (all my birthday cards ripped up, kid hid in my bed then jumped out at me and started punching me, older kids beating us with bamboo canes when putting us to bed) but with all of those examples afterwards I knew that the bullies where wrong and that the community was behind me. Thanks to that I learned to deal with bullies. In my later years at the school other kids tried to bully me but thanks to how previous bullying had been dealt with I knew not to take their crap and that they were just stupid and petty for trying to bully me. Now I admit my schooling was rather different from the norm (understatement) but I fail to see why the idea of "Help the kid stand up to the bullies by giving them support" can't work.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Like I said in the other thread, the bullies I encountered in school weren't anywhere near as bad as the average customer I've had to deal with. The other difference is that in school, you have free counselors and stuff, whereas at work you have no recourse at all and you're expected to smile through it and deal.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

See now I would say that that's a problem with society that needs addressing. We shouldn't let kids be bullied because people in the retail industry are. No instead we should stop letting people in the retail industry be bullied.

O Drunk have you heard of Not Always Right by the way? http://notalwaysright.com/

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:04:52 PM

I learned a lot about the real world in school. Even if the environment is contained, people are still people there.

I think school really does, at the very least, teach people how to act in the real world.

edited 18th Jan '12 11:16:06 AM by MrAHR

Read my stories!

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Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:05:15 PM

Except when you're in the retail business, you're probably an adult, and have to understand that most of the time, the customer isn't angry for the sake of being angry, and you also get paid to deal with them. If something actually turns physical or abusive, you turn to a manager, or the police.

When you're a kid, you're a fragile butterfly trying to fly in a world of complex education and socialization, while also just growing up. Where in the real world, you can get a restraining order or the law on your side to keep bullies away, in school, you have to constantly meet with the same person nearly everyday, and trying to report them to the authorities only gets you in trouble, too, for somehow having caused the bully to hurt you in the first place.

That's the core of the problem, really. When Student A gets picked on by Student B, both get in trouble, even when it's clear that only Student B should be getting penalized.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

@Silasw: Yeah, but that's not going to happen until the "customer is always right" mentality is gone, and that would require businesses to actually care about their employees. And bullying from middle-management isn't going to go away either, because only the naive, the sadistic, or the stupid are willing to work that job.

(Also, I love Not Always Right. They're a great site. )

@Fanty: See, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Getting shoved in a locker is no better or worse than a customer throwing things at you. Yeah, it's terrible, but you can't exactly sue them or get them thrown in jail. The most you can do is get your manager to tell them to leave the store, but that has the exact same problems as trying to get your teacher to get the bully to leave you alone.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

@DG I don't see how you can compare your treatment by customers to student-student releations. What defines which student gets to be "the customer"? Would you let one of your coworkers harass you without taking legal action? Or someone outside the work situation? Because that's the releationship you should compare student-student releations to if anything.

edited 18th Jan '12 11:43:44 AM by Qeise

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.