Restore, redefine and fix: Baby Got Back

I think this article was too hastily deleted. The scant discussions I can find seem to be the consensus people were potholing it for any character with a butt they liked, and that "butts are not a Trope".

The first argument is the fault of editors, not of the trope itself. The second argument is ridiculous. Shes Got Legs and Sexy Back list characters known for their legs or bare backs, how are they any more or less valid for tropes than characters known for their butts?

I think this can be saved, if we redefine the trope to refer to characters known in-universe for having nice butts, or if the work of fiction they appear in noticeably emphasizes their butt and features it prominently. Real Life examples would be forbidden. If need be it could be declared a YMMV trope, but as with such would still be usable if it occurs in-universe.

Comments?

edited 17th Jan '12 9:15:56 AM by DrakeClawfang

That was the definition, but people refused to use it as such. We tried. We cleaned it up multiple times. People simply can't manage to stop misusing it.

Deleting a trope because people are misuing it though isn't fair to the trope and the legitimate examples associated with it. I read that Baby Got Back may or is getting merged into Male Gaze, and that's just as bad because they are entirely different tropes and IMO it's just potholing the examples into someplace else.

edited 17th Jan '12 9:20:18 AM by DrakeClawfang

There were only a couple legitimate uses and most of those were being dogpiled on by creepy pervs. It's not fair to the rest of the wiki to have to put up with people's sexual fantasies being listed in place of an actual trope. If you want that sort of trope around, we need a user base mature enough to not just talk about "how much they wanna tap dat ass."

Then we clean up the perversion and keep a closer watch on the page. I'm not seeing the problem here.

We tried that twice and failed. The people who were abusing it far outnumbered those trying to keep it clean. That is no longer an option.

edited 17th Jan '12 9:30:11 AM by shimaspawn

That makes no sense, keeping an eye on a page is a continuous effort. Do you have the markup for the page somewhere, I'd like to take a look and see how bad it was compared to how you're acting.

It's not just the page itself, it was the wiks it was leaving on work pages. Those are much harder to monitor on a centralized basis. No, I do not have a full copy of the page. It was cut. It is gone now.

edited 17th Jan '12 9:32:07 AM by shimaspawn

Just because people keep misusing it doesn't mean the original use doesn't exist. As mentioned before, removing Baby Got Back while still keeping Buxom Is Better, Shes Got Legs and Sexy Back makes absolutely zero sense. Voting for reinstatement.

The original use may exist, but we can't trope it because tropers are incapable of controlling themselves.

Y'know, he has a point there in reference to Buxom Is Better and the others. The reason why that trope specifically is still valid and has been kept is because it's closely watched and edited, by me and I'm sure others. I'd be willing to add a new Baby Got Back to my watchlist and keep the bullshit examples off there. The reason why Eddie cut it was because I made a thread to fix the awful, drooling description originally on the page. It's still not one of my favorite tropes, because I don't think it's often seen in-universe, but I think we might be able to make it work.

Actually a big part of the reason is when we've done clean up on those pages and those wiks, they've stayed cleaned up. People have listened when we told them to stop putting bad wiks and when we removed the creepy gushing from the page.

This trope they didn't even though it was also being monitored.

Yea, I've been keeping tabs on Buxom Is Better. It used be on 900 or so articles be the clean up and now it's down to 377.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:11:34 AM by captainpat

Also Captainpat is awesome and has been nagging people to death about it.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:16:01 AM by shimaspawn

But they stay cleaned up because people are watching them like hawks. People like Martello and Tropers/{captainpat}}. Buxom Is Better nearly got cut two or three times for being a drool page devoted to "X has big breasts" before it attracted its curators.

Baby Got Back didn't have that kind of assertive, unafraid curator. And the name doesn't help. It sounds like it's just "chick with a hot ass."

edited 17th Jan '12 10:14:49 AM by Madrugada

I'll also be willing to watch the page, I check TV Tropes every day several times. And if troper attitudes are a problem, we could rename the trope and give it a better intro. The original was pretty lame.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:16:41 AM by DrakeClawfang

It also hurt this page that this has always had less inherent tropability than a lot of the other tropes.

It doesn't indicate a girl is the prettiest in the cast. It doesn't show that a girl is the strongest of that she's a superhero. It doesn't have it's own pan shot. It's just not as much of a trope which makes it much harder to keep clean.

Even the In-Universe stuff comes off as pervy gushing because that's all there is of the trope. Pervy gushing.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:17:23 AM by shimaspawn

"It also hurt this page that this has always had less inherent tropability than a lot of the other tropes." - nonsense, characters with a focus on their rears certainly exist. I'll name some examples off the top of my head - Metal Gear Solid, Nova in Star Craft, Cammy in Street Fighter, Ashe in Final Fantasy XII. The latter three all have promotion artwork seemingly designed specifically to show off their asses, or at least emphasize them.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:18:53 AM by DrakeClawfang

Having played those games, none of those had more focus on their asses than anywhere else. There's a little bit of Third-Person Seductress, but that's about it. There's as much focus on their fronts as their backs. In fact, even from a quick google search, most art of them doesn't even show their rears at all, and the art that does tends to be an Over-the-Shoulder Pose to emphasize their chests just as much if not more. They're all terrible examples.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:24:18 AM by shimaspawn

Well if we bring it back, it's going to take some work (and it's better here than ykttw, since there are details particular to TRS). We need a clear name, for one thing. The current (technically current) name is from a song about butt obsession, and itself just became a cultural term for a sexy ass. So it's no wonder the trope got lots of misuse.

And yes, some should agree to curate the thing, like the other tropes.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:33:56 AM by DragonQuestZ

Cammy absolutely has more emphasis shown on her butt than anything else. Her original win pose in Street Fighter 2, the updated version in Street Fighter 4, and the intro pose in Street Fighter 4 are completely blatant. The camera zooms and holds on her ass specifically in Street Fighter 4.

Sure, but unless another character is caught looking at her butt or makes a comment, it's not in-universe. That makes her ass focus Male Gaze, Fanservice and anything else that applies.

if we redefine the trope to refer to characters known in-universe for having nice butts, or if the work of fiction they appear in noticeably emphasizes their butt and features it prominently. - Cammy counts

Well that makes the case to bring this trope back even stronger, because it's pretty damn easy to find in-universe cases where one character admires another's ass. Here's a Getting Crap Past the Radar example involving Captain America (Bucky Barnes) and a couple of The Avengers ladies: Clicky◊.

That bold criteria ends up causing trope decay and it makes this trope identical to Male Gaze.

He doesn't even look like he's looking at them let alone their behinds.

edited 17th Jan '12 10:55:29 AM by shimaspawn