Clean-up Needed: SNK Boss

The page SNK Boss is about bosses from fighting games who are really difficult, and quite possibly cheating.

It turns out this is precisely what the page That One Boss, and its subpage for Fighting games, are also about. The subpage for That One Boss even spells out that most of the entries on that page qualify as SNK Boss, and several of its examples call out cheating, move-reading, or other shenanigans.

Since the pages are redundant, I think a merge (and redirect) would be a good idea.

Wow, that really is a clone.

The difference here is that SNK boss(boss designed to break the balance in a fighting game) is a legitimate trope used by game developers for a variety of reasons. That One Boss is a bunch of tropers blabbing about bosses that are hard. It is a subjective page. They should not be merged.

More likely, all fighting game examples on that One Boss should be deleted and that page should just have a link to SNK boss saying add examples there. Theoretically, every SNK Boss will not be That One Boss(The Metal Bros from Melee come to mind) but who cares? We don't need a bunch of subjective whining when SNK Boss is a real trope. If your example doesn't fit on the real trope's page too bad, put it on the work page's Your Mileage May Vary tab.

edited 19th Dec '11 9:02:57 PM by Cider

SNK Boss is also a bunch of tropers blabbing about bosses that are hard. The legitimate trope here is already covered by Perfect Play A.I. and The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard.

A change I think necessary for SNK Boss is making it a subtrope of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard rather than That One Boss, because there's people who beat them perfectly any time they want. For example, I don't consider myself a good player but in Dissidia Final Fantasy I kick Chaos' sorry ass whenever I need to.

Also Perfect Play A.I. doesn't cover most examples in SNK Boss. They are difficult because they spam That One Attack, have more power, don't recoil or things like that. They are only cheaters, but their AI is far from perfect. It makes me wonder why it's mentioned in the first point of the trope and then, a few paragraphs below, says that "compare with Perfect Play A.I., which isn't cheating but a perfect battle strategy".

Yes, SNK boss is definitely the bastard cheating computer at work but not perfect AI play. SNK bosses like Jinpachi from Tekken, actually pretty much every SNK boss from Tekken, are only defeatable because the computer will inevitably make mistakes. If the computer preformed perfectly those bosses wouldn't be beatable, that's an objective statement.

Boss designed to break the fighting game's balance is also an objectively used trope, that's why the player character versions of them tend to be much weaker.

edited 20th Dec '11 5:18:53 PM by Cider

Well, those parts have been edited. It would be a nightmare to defeat a SNK Boss if he also played perfectly. Chaos saying "you cannot surpase me" would be too true to consider fighting him.

About the merging and all, SNK Boss is more a trope about final and secret bosses than regular ones as That One Boss is. If the examples in the Fighting page of That One Boss fit this description then Cider's proposal would take care of the problem, I think.

Bumping.

Is there anything to do with the trope then, or this can be closed?

Wait, so there is or is not a reason to cut?

They are different tropes. There's no reason to cut this trope at all. However the problem seems to be that people think SNK Bosses are That One Boss, when a SNK Boss is usually a Final Boss Purposefully Overpowered with some help of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard, because there would be no other way to make a legitimate difficult fight in a fighting game otherwise.

Well, there's Perfect Play A.I., but that's the step from The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard to directly unbeatable. In any case the misuse, if there's any, is in the Fighting page of That One Boss.

edited 31st Dec '11 12:36:44 PM by DrMcNinja

This somes it up neatly.

My first thought on seeing the first few posts of this thread is, "Oh dear lord, it's one of those dreaded intent tropes..."

Wait, what's an SNK?

SNK is a game company.

So, is anyone going to prove misuse, or can we be done with this?

Ohhhh.

Actually That One Boss needs a cleanup to remove the Final Boss characters. Nothing to do with this trope.

I'll change the link of the thread to That One Boss, SNK Boss doesn't have any problem at all.

The problem is now that That One Boss pages have a lot of Final Bosses that shouldn't be there. Though I think that should go to special efforts, I'm not sure how it works.

edited 2nd Jan '12 2:40:31 PM by DrMcNinja

Well, now the thread title makes no sense. I'll holler for a mod to change it.

I already hollered a mod when I changed it.

Any Bonus Boss examples don't belong either because those are opponents who (by definition) you have to be going out of your way (almost deliberately so) to find.

edited 2nd Jan '12 6:22:47 PM by Stratadrake

Wait, we are discussing SNK Boss, and several people agree there's a problem with that page or at least its title. It's bad form to dodge a debate by suddenly make the thread point to a different trope.

No, it's not that. We have agreed that SNK Boss works perfectly and that the problem is in That One Boss. Then I changed the link and hollered to change the name of the thread. In the meantime until a mod changed it My Timing Is Off came, saw my message and said that the title of the thread was wrong. Nobody has said that there's a problem with SNK Boss, either in the title or the description.

No, you have asserted that SNK Boss works "perfectly". I'm not seeing a lot of agreement with that. You're jumping the gun.

Yeah, excuse me if I move on with the thread while you abandon it. If you're not there while people give explanations don't come back later to complain about the decisions taken.

Cider and I gave a good explanation about why the problem is in the That One Boss page and not in the SNK Boss page, and nobody refuted us, so you don't have any right to complain about it because the explanation was given almost two weeks ago.

It's 4 people (Cider, Indirect Active Transport, Dark Nemesis and me) who think the trope is right and That One Boss isn't, so don't say things like "people think there's a problem" or "I'm not seeing agreement with you" when that's false.

edited 3rd Jan '12 4:07:01 AM by DrMcNinja

Alright, I changed it back. Clearly this is a more contentious issue than I'd have guessed.

McNinja, if you want to discuss That One Boss, I think you should start a new thread.