Shows the Loser but not the You: This Loser Is You

In cases like this, it is. Do I even need to point out the very TRS title?

The entire point of this trope is that the character being portrayed is both an Audience Surrogate and a Take That! to the same audience. If the pic is missing one of those pieces, it doesn't portray the trope. The gamer pic demonstrates a guy who we have to assume is a "loser" because he's playing a game in which the character is playing a game. The problem there is that not only are there games-within-games in Real Life, but it's not exactly something that immediately makes someone a loser. Thus, the pic (in my opinion) fails because the character he's playing is supposed to be a "loser", but there's no clear indication of that. At the very least, the Homer pic demonstrated negative traits clearly and in a form which applied to a broader range of people.

edited 18th Jan '12 1:21:59 AM by KingZeal

You want a picture of what is essentially an Audience Reaction. That is an in-universe example.

Yes, it is weaker on the "loser". But vastly stronger on the "you".

edited 18th Jan '12 1:27:11 AM by rodneyAnonymous

But it's not an in-universe trope. It is a trope in which a character shares the same clearly negative traits as the audience.

But that's just it. It's so strong on the "you" (in this case, that specific person) that it completely undermines the point of the trope. It might as well be a pic of a football player watching a movie about someone playing football. Where's the indication of negativity, aside from the assumption that just playing a game (even if it's a game about playing a game) is inherently negative. Remember, it's the character's negative traits that are the crux of the trope, because they are supposed to reflect the audience's.

edited 18th Jan '12 1:34:12 AM by KingZeal

"But it's not an in-universe trope"

Ok.

Hunched-over video gamers are plenty uncool enough to qualify for losers as far as popular media are concerned. Also, there's no mockery (of the intended audience, at least) involved in the trope; that's Take That, Audience!. This is gunning for legitimate relatability, but simply drawing from a low assumed standard of viewers.

@King Zeal: The point Rodney is trying to make (I think) is that the Onion picture shows the audience as well as the work that's insinuating that they're a loser. The guy in the picture is the audience, and the game he's playing is the work that's showing him (the audience) to be a loser.

Also, Audience Reactions can totally be shown in universe. Take Jumping the Shark as an example.

• Standard Use: The audience identifies a point in a show at which point the quality takes a nose dive

• In Universe use: A character in the work identifies a point in a Show Within a Show where the quality takes a nose dive.

Both of those are examples of the trope.

Although you do have a point about the assumption of gaming being inherently negative. I'm not sure how strong the "loser" comes across in that picture.

edited 18th Jan '12 7:28:58 AM by JapaneseTeeth

"Everyone bitching about the image being pulled too quickly should've piped up when the motion was made. "

Except not everybody goes to the forum everyday or goes to this trope page everyday, and thus many of us wouldn't realize the motion was being made until it was too late. All of 3 people in just 3 days said they didn't like this image and so it got pulled. And Willbyr's retort came after 3 other people spoke up to say they liked the image.

And sarcasm is such a lovely way to keep things civil. Almost as civil as calling disagreements with the image pulling, "bitching".

edited 18th Jan '12 8:13:50 AM by k9feline5

We changed our policy from pulling pics immediately after three votes to waiting ~24 hours once the motion is made to obtain the necessary number of votes to pull or to see if any votes to keep or Keep Until Better Image Suggested are made. We've been operating in this fashion for months now; if you're not here to state your case, well, that's on you. For this, no one wanting the image kept said anything for a week after it was pulled. Also, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the pic doesn't demonstrate the trope.

That last point I'll concede; the comment preceding that stuck in my craw a bit.

edited 18th Jan '12 11:15:00 AM by Willbyr

If anyone against the image pulling had said anything a day after it had been pulled, would that have made a difference? Seriously, I'm asking. Also, nobody in favor of the image pulling had anything to contribute for a month and a half after it had been pulled.

And I would argue that the image does work for the page (certainly better than the proposed substitution). In the first place, it's Homer Simpson, star of a highly rated, much referenced show that's been on the air for over 20 years and is still on the air. Odds that the average wiki user will know who that is is extremely high. And the things people know about him (husband and father, loves beer, is the main character and an idiot) all fit the point that the loser is you. Or (as the page itself suggests) is someone you can enjoy feeling superior to, no matter how pathetic/stupid you are. And I've always felt the caption below was the brilliant icing on the cake.

"If anyone against the image pulling had said anything a day after it had been pulled, would that have made a difference?"

Yes.

Also I dunno why so many image conversations turn into a perfect/terrible false dilemma. It is okay, and IMO the "best of the okay", shows the trope the most. Can just disagree instead of alleging that's wrong and nobody could think so unless they're wrong.

edited 18th Jan '12 1:22:28 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Thing is, the fact that most people know who Homer Simpson is doesn't make him a good illustration. All it shows is that he's a loser. It doesn't show in any way that he's supposed to represent the audience. Even if we assume that everyone is familiar with the character (which is an assumption we aren't supposed to make with these images), just because he's a husband and father doesn't make him an audience surrogate.

The other thing is that the image was pulled according to procedure: A motion to pull was made, seconded, and thirded. There were no votes to keep in the 24 hours after the motion, so it got pulled. If people support the pic and want to put it back up, that's fine, but to do that we need a consensus that the image is good enough to be on the page, and we quite obviously don't have that consensus here.

By that estimation, how do we demonstrate the "You", then? By the same token, how many people are going to recognize somebody playing a videogame as a "You Loser" (not trying to pick on that pic, but just trying to demonstrate the problem) as that pick is focused on one specific character doing something. Like I said before, we might as well have a pick of a football player watching a movie about football.

If we're going to go by these narrow criteria, then it A) should be in-universe and B) must be an activity which is considered loserish in-universe C) clearly demonstrates that the target audience is the party being mocked by the very thing they watch/play/enjoy.

edited 18th Jan '12 1:40:09 PM by KingZeal

"By that estimation, how do we demonstrate the "You", then?"

By having the "you" in the picture, sitting in front of a monitor.

Knock it off your two. Keep the topic on the image and stop fighting.

Ideally, we'd want an image of somebody watching a Show Within a Show that contains an obvious loser that resembles the person who's watching the show. No idea if such an image exists, though, and my artistic abilities are too limited to create one. The closest we have is the guy playing a video game, although that's a bit light on the "loser" part of the trope.

I for one am in concord with... whatshisname. The Onion picture may better demonstrate the trope, but do not find it funny - I thought the homer image and caption humorous. Unless a custom picture could be created for the sole purpose of demonstrating the trope, I believe that the original picture and caption would more than suffice. Maybe there is a better picture out there in the ether, waiting to take the original's place, but that Onion image is not it.

Just my two pence.

Hmm I wonder if Rito's Gardener class in the Trouble Quest in To Love RU would work or Haganai's Wizard class in that Deep Emerson Gaming episode... let me see if I can grab a screen of each.

Here is To Love RU's [1]◊[2]◊[3]◊[4]◊[5]◊[6]◊[7]◊

Haganai [8]◊ [9]◊ [10]◊ [11]◊ [12]◊ [13]◊

edited 19th Jan '12 6:49:17 AM by Raso

lol what did they say

The Simpson image is perfect. I'm not sure what the misunderstanding is, but this is isn't headed a direction of improving the article.

Homer is a surrogate for the audience in the image. People to literal minded to get that ... not sure we can help them.