So, we're all creators, and sometimes it can be hard not to brag about things, and come off as a bit...well, arrogance.

So I thought I'd create this thread where we could possibly list things to avoid, or discuss it in general!

Please no direct targetting.

One thing I always think of: When talking about content (not process or response), it is usually not a good idea to use your own unpublished work as an example for advice. This tends to result in questionable advice, since anyone can write something, and that doesn't mean it's good, and it ends with the person holding up their own work in far too high regard.

edited 22nd Nov '11 8:17:10 AM by MrAHR

Read my stories!

I always have to fight the urge to respond to criticism with justification. Sometimes I really do have a valid point, but more often than not the fact that I need to justify things in the first place usually means something needs reworking.

Don't get butthurt because someone doesn't appreciate your

ART -holy music-

Instead, consider why your work may be giving them the wrong impression of what you are trying to convey and use their critique to refine it. Changing your

ART -holy music-

doesn't have to mean destroying your vision.

^ oh u ninja

edited 21st Nov '11 9:03:53 PM by SnowyFoxes

The last battle's curtains will open on stage!

@Kyle: good point. I guess this plays back into the more general advice that reads "learn how to take criticism".

Which includes dismissive, hateful or otherwise unpleasant criticism. If they have a point, listen. If they don't, ignore. And if someone can't be bothered to try and be polite about their dislike, I feel an author's under no obligation to try and untangle their rudeness to find the message.

Now, learning to recognize when they're being rude (rather than you just being overly sensitive) is tricky. Any thoughts here?

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

It's always kind of hard, especially on the Internet. Then there are fuckers like me that like to throw in some cussing every other fucking word just out of habit.

My policy is, if you feel offended by something, have some of your favorite beverage, maybe a short walk, and come back to it later. You might see it differently.

edited 21st Nov '11 8:56:58 PM by SnowyFoxes

The last battle's curtains will open on stage!

This. There are times when criticism is the result of pure stylistic differences, but if someone is misunderstanding your work, far and away the most likely explanation is that you needed to clarify things further in the text. I've never had a particular problem with this, but I also have experienced very little criticism - I think that this would be a very

Also, for advice meant specifically for this forum: please don't gush about how awesome, "deconstructive", or troperiffic your work is - and for the love of [insert appropriate deity here], never describe one of your characters in terms of a "positive" trope. I'd say never describe your characters in terms of tropes at all, but 1) I've beaten that horse to death elsewhere, 2) it isn't always a bad idea, and 3) that doesn't really have to do with arrogance as such.

edited 21st Nov '11 8:58:53 PM by nrjxll

well, you have two types of non-rude critics.

The harsh and gentle ones. Gentle ones are usually fairly easy to tell when they're just being assholes.

The harsh...are people like Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsey, it's hard to tell what's harsh, and what's just being rude.

Of course, I definitely know that some people would argue that any harsh critics are by default rude, so...

Read my stories!

It definitely isn't a problem to justify yourself if someone is giving you a critique and you have a valid reason for writing such a thing. It doesn't mean the critic can't criticize your justification, but it at least creates some conversation; a positive flow of discussion. Like, just today at my college's writer's club, I had to explain some concepts that a peer thought was off. It wasn't an argument, just a clash of writing styles since my writing tends to be loonier and more off-the-wall, where as her's was down-to-earth and logically precise.

I agree that you should avoid using your own excerpts from stories you've written as a "basis" to compare to others, unless the ideas are directly related and you're only offering a suggestion. I guess it depends on the tone you have when bringing up your own works.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

Learning to separate stylistic clash from legitimate criticism is probably one of the most difficult things to do, because its so subjective. "It's supposed to suck like that" can be used to cover a good deal of problems IMO.

I've dealt with this before;*

someone called my work "slow" and "boring" because things took a while to get rolling. Now, I took this criticism completely to heart, and as such alienated a large number of people who'd previously been supportive of my work, saying that I was moving too fast and "cutting too much".

I realized that the individual in question simply liked faster moving stories, and both approaches were valid. Her criticism had merit; in places, my work did move too slowly. But in the end I decided to not give it so much weight.

I guess the answer is to weigh each opinion equally. I dunno, that's what I came to.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I'll bring up an anecdote I've mentioned before—when Orson Scott Card was told that The Worthing Saga was too long, he realized that it felt too long. So he made it even longer, but added more details so as to improve the pacing. I think it worked out pretty well.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Don't consider yourself an artist. Don't treat your work as art. You are a workman, not Rembrandt. You are creating work, not beauty. Madness, terror, and insufferable arrogance lie down the road to seeking artistry rather than competency.

Responding to criticism with justification is only a problem if your justifications are poor. Try to get a sense of whether they are.

edited 22nd Nov '11 1:13:50 AM by Night

Nous restons ici.

Eh, fuck that. I may be an incompetent artist, but I'm an artist all the same.

And responding to criticism is almost always a problem, because you're speaking for your work when it needs to speak for itself.

edited 22nd Nov '11 5:38:46 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

DS: See, that falls under process and reaction, not content. Hooray for loopholes.

Read my stories!

"Your work needs to be able to speak for itself."

Yes. Yes yes yes.

Also, it's probably more useful to divide the rude critics instead of the non-rude critics. There are two types of rude critics: the ones who have a point and the ones who don't.

When it comes to dividing out the valid versus invalid criticism, that's why it's important to get crit from multiple people. If one person says something you don't agree with, that's just one person. If multiple people say it, there's probably something you're not seeing. Not everyone is going to like everything you write, even in its final form. That's just a given.

edited 22nd Nov '11 7:08:15 AM by ohsointocats

edited 18th Dec '11 1:09:51 PM by BetsyandtheFiveAvengers

Although, on that pacing thing, I have received HUGE amounts of confusion on that. I have taken some of the crits (mostly from my beta reader, who definitely helped huge), but a lot of it had me worried. Pacing is probably the most confusing complaint ever. Especially when you're not updating on a normal book pace.

Because you have different stories wanting different things. Some people really do want the sweeping landscape descriptions, or the small character interactions to contribute to some overarching theme. And chances are, aside from REALLY horrendous pacing, you'll probably find SOME person who will like the pacing you desire.

Read my stories!

"I guess the answer is to weigh each opinion equally. I dunno, that's what I came to."

I tend to consider the source. If an opinion comes from someone who thinks that Naruto is rad, and Twilight has great characterization, I'm not really going to give a fuck about what they think regarding any piece of writing.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Well, even then, they still will know bad grammar, or a plot hole.

@Nj: The trope thing is another thing as well. Especially since it makes it so anyone who is trying to write a deconstruction is just going to sound like they have no clue what they are talking about. I don't know why a deconstruction is always a positive thing though. I am trying to write one, and it's probably the least well received thing I ever put out. Deconstructions =/= good.

edited 22nd Nov '11 7:50:34 AM by MrAHR

Read my stories!

"Well, even then, they still will know bad grammar, or a plot hole."

Not everyone who attempts to correct others' grammar is competent enough to do so. We had a thread recently in which three people diagnosed a sentence as incorrect when absolutely nothing was wrong with it.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

True, but their enjoyment of Twilight and Naruto would not serve as an indication of their skill in that, that's all I'm saying.

Read my stories!

In my experience, the two go hand in hand.

And what I am saying is, be critical of the criticism you receive instead of taking it at face value.

edited 22nd Nov '11 7:59:02 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

There's a difference between liking something and thinking it's well-made. People can like shit and still know their shit. People who think the shit is gold will not know their shit.

"There's a difference between liking something and thinking it's well-made."

Absolutely.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Not doing what Hamilton did is a good start.

The last battle's curtains will open on stage!

Or Anne Rice.

Read my stories!