Fix: Light Masculine And Dark Masculine

I don't think Light Masculine and Dark Masculine should have ever been launched. Light Feminine and Dark Feminine could be called lady and the slut, both sexually desirable but one is wholesome and one promiscuous. The only way a character can be gentlemanly and manly without him being socially awkward is if he's some sort of Superman or heroic noble. Hetalia's Germany isn't gentlemanly. Firefly's Simon manliness comes and goes. Gone With The Wind's Ashley is a Cultured Warrior but his men think it's strange.

Hmm firstly I don't think the feminine version of this trope is lady and slut (sexy doesn't equal slutty, and innocence/naivety doesn't equal ladylike).

Secondly, there's a often a contrast presented between dark, edgy, bad boy types and nice, shine, purer guys (who aren't necessarily weak or lacking in masculinity). Being a gentleman is just a different aspect of masculinity, and doesn't preclude characters from being presented strongly.

edited 6th Nov '11 10:21:30 PM by Falco

Okay, looks like it's just us. You could probably also say that it's any two characters who are wholesome or benevolent contrasted with promiscuous or malicious. The Light Feminine and Dark Feminine page doesn't actually say anything about innocence/naivety. It says "Sweet and Serene," like goodness.

As for Light Masculine and Dark Masculine. If you want the counterpart of light and dark femme couldn't you always go to Red Oni, Blue Oni, light and dark femme being the decidedly feminine counterpart to red and blue oni?

Light Masculine and Dark Masculine is at it's core the noble white knight hero and the scoundrel. It's very much the core High Fantasy duo. Han and Luke would be a well known example. They're both masculine ideals that women are attracted to, but they're on a very different dichotomy. It might not show up that much in the sort of media you watch, but in fantasy this shows up in almost every work.

It's not Red Oni, Blue Oni because it's not cold and logical vs. hot headed. It's more noble vs. a bit of a rogue.

edited 18th Nov '11 11:49:04 AM by shimaspawn

Shima has nailed it in her(?) first sentence- its the noble hero contrasted against the roguish hero.

What Shimaspawn said.

Why isn't this named Noble Hero Rogue Hero then?

or White Knightvs Anti Hero, for that matter. But I think part of the problem is that they don't have to be the protagonists. Is that correct?

Honestly it should be. Or at least Noble And Rogue or Noble Male Rogue Male or something along those lines. Light Feminine and Dark Feminine is also have similar name and definition issues.

Yeah, I think that Noble And Rogue or maybe Noble Male And Rogue Male describes this trope better than Light and Dark since I feel like those words tend to have a variety of connotations (good and evil for example) that do not necessarily apply here.

Is it time for a single proposition rename crowner or do you think we should wait a bit more and see if anyone else has arguments for and against the current name?

Just throwing my vote behind Noble Male And Male Rogue, since we aren't talking about a gender neutral trope here

Noble Male And Rogue Male would make a lot more sense, if indeed this trope needs to exist.

I don't think Noble Male And Rogue Male is the same as Light Masculine and Dark Masculine. As it is now, a Light Masculine could be a rogue no matter how gentlemantly he is and a Dark one could be very noble while hot-blooded.

Okay, I guess it is a trope after all but I like what Koveras said in the YKTTW, "Isn't it funny how Light Feminine and Dark Feminine dichotomy is immediately obvious to anyone but the Gender Flipped version has everyone scratching their heads? :D" It does need a new title like Noble Male And Rogue Male and as Zoorteg points out, a little bit of repair.

Actually that's true. We even have a Gentleman Thief trope.

I'm also unhappy with Light Feminine and Dark Feminine and am considering pulling it into here.

edited 21st Nov '11 5:26:42 PM by Falco

There is now a single proposition rename crowner for this trope here.

I see the biggest problem with the hotblooded or gentelman sorting of the dark or light type. Is someone would ask me if there is a Spear Counterpart of Light Feminine and Dark Feminine I would say of course. E.g it is not unusual in a romantic story that the girl has to decide between a "nice guy" and the "bad boy".

But I the difference not the temperament of the characters. For me the difference is the way the characters represent the values the society considers acceptable or not.

The light one represents the traits which are considerd "good" by the society. He is kind, lawful, a gentleman, thinks of others... the kind of guy all parents want for their daughter. Maybe boring, but safe.

The dark one represents the traits the society considers "bad", he can be rebellious, egoictical, he is not always nice toward women, he is rude... The kind of guy the daughter wants: Dangerous but exiting.

But both characters could be hotblooded or more cold. It could be the interlectual gentleman contrasted with the wild rebell or it could be hotbloodeed Determinator vs. icecold asshole.

Including the Red Oni, Blue Oni contrast in the description seems wrong for Light Masculine and Dark Masculine (in Light Feminine and Dark Feminine too)

Red Oni, Blue Oni can be confused with the good boy and bad boy idea(Light Masculine and Dark Masculine) so I think it should be mentioned.

As for saying that it's like when in a romantic story that the girl has to decide between a "nice guy" and the "bad boy": It's important to not confuse it with a male Betty and Veronica, boring but safe and dangerous but exiting. Not to say that there can't be some overlaping if the Betty and Veronica are both manly but being manly would make the Betty not so boring.

I like the 'noble and rogue' ideas. All of them really. wording like that will keep it from being confused with Betty and Veronica. Its not about 'boring vs exciting' but differing facets of masculinity. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the current name but I really do like the noble/rogue dichotomy.

Responding to the troper who said "Just throwing my vote behind Noble Male And Male Rogue, since we aren't talking about a gender neutral trope here." I don't think it should have male in the title because if there were two Action Girls where one was noble and one was a rouge (but they wern't necessarily sweet and sexy) it should be able to count, shouldn't it?

edited 23rd Nov '11 11:36:00 AM by atheywa

The trope is aboout two ideas of masculinity, so I am pretty sure it is not gender neutral.

This. These are masculine ideals. Two women can't really be masculine ideals.

I have a couple of suggestions for examples, if they work. There's rivals Edward and Jacob from Twilight and old friends Proteus and Sinbad from Sinbad:Legend Of The Seven Seas.

Also, I have an issue with the Firefly example and any others where the two characters don't have some sort of relationship with each other, but are just both there. The two characters should be playing the traits off each other, shouldn't they? (Not one's light, one's dark and another's something else.)

We're thirteen vs three. Is that enough to go on with the renaming? Also if no one objects I'd like to make the editing about the light and dark characters having a relationship to each other.

I believe there only needs to be 2:1 for a consensus if there are more than 10 votes, so yes.