Written overly Japanese Specific: Gratuitous English

Despite the fact that this is done in a number of different languages and not just Japanese, the whole article is written as if it only happens in Japan at least until the second half. The description clean up thread decided it was too much for them, but this really needs an overhaul.

Oh hell yes.

That's a "seconding" by the way.

edited 1st Nov '11 3:36:26 PM by Worldmaker

From what I've heard, this really is enough of a 'problem' in Japanese works that having a whole paragraph devoted to them might be justifiable. But the first paragraph? No, and the rest of the description could use some tweaking as well.

edited 1st Nov '11 3:38:05 PM by nrjxll

Didnt we already go over this in another thread? err nvm that was Surprisingly Good English.

Anyways I would suggest the same thing as there leave pretty much alone and make a Gratuitous Foreign Language supertrope... EDIT: ok that exists... still this is a serious Japanese thing especially since its rarely ever right.

We can make threads again? err no fuck..... FFS this is pissing me off waiting for a god damn button.

edited 1st Nov '11 3:42:55 PM by Raso

Gratuitous Foreign Language already exists. And this should not be left alone - it does seem to occur more often in Japanese works, but as written the description mentions its existence anywhere else as basically an afterthought, which is wrong.

This is overly Japanese-specific, with no real reason for being so.

^This is me supporting a rewrite.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:07:33 PM by DisasterGrind

I personally found this article to be exceptionally informative and useful. I would hate to see any of the for information that is currently in it to be lost. If we were to make the description more generic, then we should keep the Japanese specific information but move it somewhere else.

Given that there is already a subpage just for Anime and Manga, that would be a logical place to put it.

And yes Raso, I know Japan is not Anime Land, but that is where English speaking media consumers are most likely to encounter it, and where the bulk of the Japan specific examples seem to be.

If putting it under Anime is not acceptable, then we need to create a subtrope or Useful Notes page just for the Japanese specific information.

I highly doubt that Gratuitous English occurs more often in Japan than in other countries. That is a misunderstanding coming from the fact that most non english media the average troper encounters is anime and manga.

When it comes to Gratuitous English Japan is defintly not more special than other countries and it should not be the focus point of this trope.

If you feel some of the Japan-specific stuff is worth saving, I suggest making an analysis page and putting it on there - there's nothing wrong with analyzing one specific part of the trope on there, but giving disproportionate focus in the description should be avoided.

I'm inclined to agree, actually, but as I have no firsthand experience with Japanese media of any sort I can't be certain. Either way, what's there now is too much.

It doesn't matter if it occurs more in Japan than in other countries. What matters is that it is a real feature of the Japanese language that influences Japanese media, and therefore is worth noting, along with Japanese Pronouns, Japanese Honorifics, etc. Sure, Japan isn't the only country that has honorifics and pronouns, but that doesn't mean we should ditch the useful and informative articles we have on these topics.

Quoting the first line: This is not so much an Anime Trope as a feature of the Japanese language.

The problem is that what is essentially a Useful Note on the Japanese language was given an overly generic title.

So while I would be willing to support reapprorpiating the generic title for something more generic, I would be utterly opposed to just ditching the useful information about the Japanese language. It should still go somewhere.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:28:57 PM by Auxdarastrix

Also, the title is misleading in another way: It isn't about the "gratuitous" use of English. It is about English words that have become loan words in Japanese.

Yes, it should go somewhere. A Grammar wiki, or maybe a wiki that has to do with Japanese culture, but it's not media related and we don't really need it. Just because it's interesting doesn't mean it's on mission.

So you are arguing for ditching all our useful notes on various languages?

Not to mention, well, just about everything else in the Useful Notes section.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:31:44 PM by Auxdarastrix

If that's correct, then it's Useful Notes, not a trope.

I would be happy with moving it to anime and manga, but if we put all the Japanese examples on that page instead of just Anime and Manga it would be better.... it means something different in the culture than anywhere else and when it is more than a few words and right its flat out shocking.

Odd English phrases show up everywhere in Japanese especially when they want a proper noun over a descriptive term like Final Fantasy VII's HOLY or Yes Pretty Cure 5 which uses "Yes" instead of "Hai" for badass moments. (Hai is still used in normal conversations) Why? because English is cool.

I wouldn't be opposed to splitting Gratuitous English as in quick phrases and usage such as those in above paragraph and those just plain wrong like this (the bottom image is actually whats saying in the japanese) Which is stupidly common in works.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:41:06 PM by Raso

" it means something different in the culture than anywhere else and when it is more than a few words and right its flat out shocking. "

Not exactly. Anybody could say that about any language. Besides, it being shocking is not what this trope is about.

The thing is, Gratuitous English is Gratuitous English; we're not here to look into what it means for Japan, we're trying to get across the idea of the trope, and give examples; turning this into something Japan-specific gets nothing done, and only puts the wrong idea into people's heads.

I mean, sure, you could stick all the Japan-centric info on a useful notes page about Japan, that's a good idea, but having it on the page of the trope proper is just silly.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:50:23 PM by DisasterGrind

Edit: Nevermind

I can support Raso's idea.

It is either that or make this a Useful Note on English loan words, and create a related Useful Note on how this manifests in Japanese.

Now that I think of it, I really would like to ditch the term "Gratuitous" if at all possible. Maybe it is just me, but it seems like it has unnecessarily negative connotations.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:48:39 PM by Auxdarastrix

Nevermind.

edited 1st Nov '11 4:45:55 PM by 20LogRoot10

So it would look like (place holder names)

• Gratuitous English: Phrases and words mixed in with the normal language why because English is cool. (English equivalent to this is usage of French words... as French is cool to us.) visual example would be T-Shirts [1]◊)
  • Bad English (NNF): Bad Grammar, misspelled etc extremely noticeable because it is the wiki's native language and extremely common and made fun of. (inside and outside of works)
  • Surprisingly Good English: Someone did the research and actually got it correct for once. Ika Musume did a bit on english and it made the news and waves around small clip.. all I could find on Youtube.

edited 1st Nov '11 5:06:33 PM by Raso

"Turning this into something Japanese Specific" Older Version Here

It reads to me that the concept that they were originally describing was something Japan specific. It just happens that other languages have something similar. However, they are called different things. Spanglish, for example.

This "trope" title is not something that really is used formally speaking to describe the phenomena of English loanwords.

The trope name comes from "Gratuitous Japanese," the anime Fan Fic community's term for the overuse of untranslated Japanese in English-language stories.

In other words, the title is something of a snowclone of Gratuitous Japanese. However, while Gratuitous Japanese refers to use of Japanese by specific fandom in scanlations or fanfic, this refers to a broader feature of the Japanese language. So, you might be able to call it a Bad Snowclone because it deviates from to original meaning.

edited 1st Nov '11 5:02:36 PM by Auxdarastrix

The problem with this page is simple: People encounterd a concept while watching anime/reading manga and instead of considering this concept could be a more universal trope, decide it has to be a super special japanese specific thing.

And the point in this case is: It isn't.

There is no fundamental difference between the use of Gratuitous English in Japan or e.g. Germany. I could rewrite the page with just a few small changes and it would be a fitting description of Gratuitous English in Gremany. And I think this is true for other languages too.

Honestly, most of the Japanese specific stuff isn't. It's not a feature of Japanese. It's a feature of languages and lonewords in general. I know for a fact that it works the exact same way in French. There's nothing special about this trope in Japanese. NOTHING. Not a word in the description is limited to that language.

If this is Gratuitous Japanese with English, then it shouldn't be Japan-specific. If it's about loanwords in general, then it's Useful Notes, not a trope. Either way, the current description doesn't work.

"It reads to me that the concept that they were originally describing was something Japan specific."

Which does not make it right. This is being done on a page meant for Gratuitous English uses across the board, not Gratuitous English in Japan.

"It just happens that other languages have something similar."

Which this trope page is about. Again, it's about "Gratuitous English", not "Gratuitous English in Japan".

"This "trope" title is not something that really is used formally speaking to describe the phenomena of English loanwords."

The trope isn't describing loanwords, it's describing 'Gratuitous English', which is, English where it isn't needed, for no reason. In other words, superfluous use of English, in a non-English speaking environment/media, for no real reason.

I thought Surprisingly Good English was supposed to be a voice acting/singing trope, not a linguistic one.